MollyModine
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Posts:134
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| 08/25/2006 1:23 PM |
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On our Appledore shire mailing list yesterday, Aug 24 at 12:33pm, Sevrin, our Seneschal, informed us rapier fighters of the following:
"Also; New fighters are required to own their own equipment before they are carded, and - of course - that equipment must meet the requirements of the Rapier ABCs."
I have no idea where that is stated in the rules, either current or draft, and not sure why that would be said other then to make life difficult.
So in my search for answers, here is what I have been provided by another senior marshal and been allowed to post. Please take a serious read.
Molly
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Now to address the ownership of equipment during the authorization process I will once again quote the rapier ABC's on this one. This point has been exercised for a number of years, its not a new rule and in the Draft rules it remains unchanged.
From the current and valid edition of the An Tir ABC's:
4. Ownership of weapons and armor is not required. However, any equipment used must meet the requirements of these rules.
5. A warranted rapier marshal must oversee any fighter authorizations.
I'll add this point in to share my thoughts on some misinformation that is going around. Allow me to make myself clear on these points, ANY marshals that are not abiding by the rules that are current and passed by the Crown and approved by the Kingdom Rapier Marshal and Earl Marshal of An Tir are in violation of improper conduct and are subject to disciplinary actions set out in the Sanctions section (8.4 of RMH).
From the current and valid edition of the An Tir ABC's:
Improper conduct is not permitted. Some examples of improper conduct are:
• Deliberately misusing, manipulating, or violating the rules.
Hope this clarifies some of the things that are happening in the marshalate side of things.
To sum it up in the point related to the issue;
Draven Mac Raith, Tiarna
Cadet to Monseigneur Prospere de Montsegur
Senior Marshal of the Kingdom of An Tir |
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Molly Modine, Hafoc
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
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Mat
Provost
Posts:123
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| 08/25/2006 1:29 PM |
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For the first year and a half back when I started doing rapier, I was carded before I owned literally any of my own gear. |
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Git-r-dun! |
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Sevrin
FALSE
Free Scholar
Posts:39
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| 08/25/2006 1:48 PM |
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| Just passing along direction I received from a Senior Marshal. If it is in error, then I will withdraw the statement. |
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Yours in Service,
Sevrin de Savage
Cadet to Don Enoch Jacobsz. van Zuidland
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MollyModine
Provost
Posts:134
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| 08/25/2006 1:57 PM |
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| Was that Senior Marshal Don Enoch? |
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Molly Modine, Hafoc
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
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Draven
Free Scholar
Posts:65
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| 08/25/2006 2:05 PM |
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Greetings,
Thank you Sevrin, that is noble of you. I'm sorry you got caught in all of this, realizing you are taking the word of someone that should have an authority or validity of the rules. If you would like to discuss this issue at length in private you can reach me at:
kindredknight(at)hotmail(dot)com |
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Draven Mac Raith
Cadet to Monseigneur Prospere de Montsegur
"Scar of Tir Righ" Principality Rapier Champion |
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Cordell
Scholar
Posts:19
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| 08/25/2006 4:27 PM |
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I was gonna laugh.. I really was..
I've been auth'd for over a year and I can honestly say I still don't "own" everything I use... Trying to build a "rigid" gorget that passes requirements...*snicker*.. *cough*..
It's pretty sad that personal preferences are being pushed as rules...
Anyway.. like my sig says.. Keep having FUN! |
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SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
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| 08/28/2006 8:14 PM |
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Quoting a quote of Draven's
"The topic of owning equipment during your authorization is crap, this rule has been in the ABC's for a number of years (2000). Anyone found refusing to authorize someone that does not own their own equipment is subject to Sanctions as discussed above."
Personally, I think you should own all of your own equipment. But I won't not authorize you if you don't own all your stuff. I will plain just not authorize you period, unless you are on a very short list people. Remember: for the life of the authorization you are responsible for that person.
Paul
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Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
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MollyModine
Provost
Posts:134
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| 08/29/2006 12:03 AM |
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Simon
Regardless if you think you should own your own equipment, the 'rules' say you do not have to own your own equipment to get authorized to fight.
And a Senior Marshal's position is to enforce the rules, not your opinion of the what the rules should be.
This is what some Senior's seem to be forgetting I feel. As a Senior you are a Referee, you are there to enforce the rules as they are written.
If you as a Senior don't like a rule then you need to stand up for your opinion and reasons why during a change period, and not disregard the current rule set that is in place because you don't like it.
Can you picture going to the World Series in Baseball and having the Ump come onto the field and say, okay I don't want any homeruns or bunts today in this game because I don't feel they are acceptable forms of hitting.
No that would never happen. The Ump regardless of his opinions and feelings on the rules is there to merely enforce the rules of the game as written. |
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Molly Modine, Hafoc
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
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SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
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| 08/29/2006 7:30 AM |
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Molly,
To own or not own battle is one I am not going to win, so I am not going to waste any effort just to get flamed for trying to exclude people based on salaries.
No where does it say I am required to authorize any person. That is the choice I can make for myself. So, by not authorizing beyond a short list of people, I don't have to worry about requiring someone to own all of their equipment, as the everyone on the list already does.
and strangely enough, I do base my prejudice on safety...I feel there is a much bigger margin of error to forget a piece of gear if it has to be borrowed. Consider the scenario of a tournament where safety gear Item A is being shared. All users get inspected with it, but one forgets to grab it when it is their time to fight...
Paul |
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Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
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MollyModine
Provost
Posts:134
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| 08/29/2006 9:21 AM |
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Simon
Okay yes, I do get your point at this now. If a person doesn't own their own gear you won't even test them, is that right? I think that's what you're indicating. And if that is the case, sobeit that is entirely your choice and I'm okay with that if that's the position you take from the get go. |
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Molly Modine, Hafoc
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
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SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
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| 08/29/2006 10:10 AM |
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Molly,
That is pretty much the jist of it. Basically, if you are not on my short list I won't test you period whether you own all your own gear or not.
Paul |
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Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
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Draven
Free Scholar
Posts:65
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| 08/30/2006 10:03 AM |
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*Sigh*
God I hate when people can't do their damn jobs.
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Rapier Marshallate
• Making sure that weapons and armor comply with these rules. A rapier marshal may disallow the use of any equipment. The marshal must explain the reasons behind their decision and return the disallowed equipment intact to its owner.
• Supervising all rapier combat at official events. NOTE: Publishing a practice or event in a branch newsletter or “The Crier” makes it an official event.
• Providing fair witness during combat.
• Supervising authorizations.
• Other duties as described in the Rapier Marshal’s Handbook.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This one's from General Rules
5. A warranted rapier marshal must oversee any fighter authorizations. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You might want to shake the dust off of your ABC's and look for the references on some of the points you were talking about. This kind've attitude sickens me as in my life I have fought against this type of discrimination in all forms. Currently I work in the social work field in an agency that battles this type behavior. Champion of a cause - I have many and you have stirred one of them.
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Draven Mac Raith
Cadet to Monseigneur Prospere de Montsegur
"Scar of Tir Righ" Principality Rapier Champion |
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Sevrin
FALSE
Free Scholar
Posts:39
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| 08/30/2006 11:02 AM |
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Posted By Draven on 08-30-2006 10:03 AM ... This one's from General Rules
5. A warranted rapier marshal must oversee any fighter authorizations.
I may be wrong, but I read this one as fighter authorizations can't be overseen by non-warranted marshals, not that Warranted marshals "have to" authorize everyone who comes to them.
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Yours in Service,
Sevrin de Savage
Cadet to Don Enoch Jacobsz. van Zuidland
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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luaithrenn
Free Scholar
Posts:55
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| 08/30/2006 11:13 AM |
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Sevrin, I agree with you. I read it as "fighter authorizations must be overseen by a warranted rapier marshal," which does not mean that the marshal must authorize anyone who comes to him or her. So Simon's position of not warranting is valid under this reading of the rule. It's a pretty simple question of satutory construction...requiring a marshal to oversee "any fighter authorizations" would ltranslate into "any fighter authorizatios presented to him or her" and, therefore, would lead to a "ridiculous result" (not my words folks, that's a term of art from my mundane job). As such, that particular reading should not be given to the statute/rule in question.
~~luaithrenn, Wastekeep |
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Luaithrenn the Falconer's Wife
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Guillemin
Provost
Posts:120
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| 08/30/2006 12:05 PM |
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I don't read it that you have to test anyone who comes to you for authorization. We all have the freedom to do what we want, and to perform authorization tests on who we want. The spirit of the rule suggests that marshals need to be fair and unbiased in choosing who to perform tests on. But nor do I read it as Simon being discriminatory. He knows that people in his group are safe, and thus he won't be liable for anything dangerous that someone he doesn't know might do.
I, on the other hand, would authorize someone I'm not intimately familiar with. In Avacal, we sometimes have little other choice, as lonely fighters from outlying areas may have to drive several hours to even see a Sr Marshal. I would fight them more than I would in an authorizing situation with someone I knew well, for instance, to ensure that they are safe, but if they met all the requirements, their card would get signed.
As for the issue at hand, it hardly matters to me when authorizing someone whether the gear is theirs or not. But I also think that local and branch marshals must encourage and help newer fighters authorizing for the first time in procuring their own gear ASAP, and making sure that gear conforms to our standards of safety. |
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Guillemin de Rouen
Cadet to Raoul Delaroche
Rapier Champion of Avacal |
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SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
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| 08/30/2006 12:33 PM |
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Thank you Guillemin, Luaithrenn and Sevrin.
If the rule was meant that a senior marshal had to conduct an authorization exam for anyone the presented themselves to the marshal, I can guarantee you I would not be a senior marshal. As I have already stated, if you sign your name you are responsible for that person for the life of the authorization, and for the vast majority I am simply not willing to do that.
Paul
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Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
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Cordell
Scholar
Posts:19
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| 08/30/2006 5:38 PM |
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So, let me get a clarification then.. If you know a fighter.. Know he/she is safe, controlled..etc, etc.. You wouldn't auth them because they don't own.. say their own mask?? Or some such??
I think Draven was relating your ... selective authorization method to mean people who don't own their own gear.. Not on the responsibility factor of the auth'ing Marshall..
Am I correct here? |
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SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
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| 08/30/2006 8:04 PM |
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| Posted By Cordell on 08-30-2006 5:38 PM
So, let me get a clarification then.. If you know a fighter.. Know he/she is safe, controlled..etc, etc.. You wouldn't auth them because they don't own.. say their own mask?? Or some such??
I think Draven was relating your ... selective authorization method to mean people who don't own their own gear.. Not on the responsibility factor of the auth'ing Marshall..
Am I correct here?
Honestly, I don't care which point Draven considers me to be in violation of.
If you are not on my list (and no I will not name names) I will not authorize you. Period, end of story.
Cordell, to use your example of no mask. I have a huge problem with people not owning their own safety gear. I don't really care if you are Bill Gates or a starving student, if you don't have your own safety gear I don't think you should be playing the game. Doing drills pre-authorization, sure...but being authorized and post authorization? Hell no. My fear is someone will forget to grab the piece of safety gear they are sharing with someone or forget that item x is something they borrow from the loaner pile and end up getting hurt.
To beat a dead horse some more (helps make the meat tender, and I hear that horse steak isn't too bad), this is not a free sport. If you want to play, weigh your priorities. Back in my early days there were plenty of events that I couldn't afford to go to. Most of my equipment has been birthday or christmas presents from my wife.
To put it in perspective, a Darkwood 12" or 14" dagger blade is about what I spent on gas for my truck (23 US Gallons at $2.88 US a gallon) so that I can go to Crown this weekend. When Alessandra and I went to Crown in Avacal a few years back, I drove 2300 miles round trip...even in our car it was an expensive trip. It would have bought lots of gear.
So deal with it and don't ask me to authorize you. Chances are the answer will be no.
If the powers that be want to yank my Senior Marshal status for "selectively authorizing" they will get zero argument from me. Frankly for the past few years I have had far more fun sparring at practice than at any tournament, so it is not like I would miss marshalling or filling in any paperwork.
Paul
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Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
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Guillemin
Provost
Posts:120
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| 08/31/2006 5:38 PM |
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| I don't see why anyone would want to pull your card. Selectively authorizing others in no way impedes your ability to effectively marshal or do armour inspections or do any of the other duties required of a Senior Marshal. Although others may disagree with your policy, there's nothing against it in the ruleset. |
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Guillemin de Rouen
Cadet to Raoul Delaroche
Rapier Champion of Avacal |
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SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
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| 08/31/2006 6:41 PM |
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Guillemin,
There were rumblings a couple of years ago, that anyone that refused to authorize someone because they did not own their own gear would be subject to sanction. That was the only reason I added that statement.
I agree, nothing anywhere says I must authorize any that request it of me.
Paul. |
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Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
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