Raoul
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| 07/21/2006 12:57 AM |
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I'm assuming the list of approved blades is based on the most recent list from the SRM. Not having seen that list I am left with a couple questions.
When the TCA and WKC schlagers were removed from the list, were any schlagers left as valid simulators?
I also don't see any Alchem blades listed. Are they out as well then?
I can find no reference to MK Armory. Where are their blades available from?
Raoul |
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"So let us go and get killed where we are told to go. Is life worth the trouble of so many questions?" -Athos |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 07/22/2006 9:11 PM |
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MK Armory: http://www.mkarmory.com/
All of the Alchem blades have been removed. None of the Alchem Swords have been "allowed" for use in An Tir for awhile now, due to lots of confusion regarding which blades were which... The daggers have been removed as well, as I have no real trust with them. We had another instance of a safeflex dagger blade snapping at July Coronation
As to the Schlagers - no not really. |
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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Raoul
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Posts:268
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| 07/23/2006 12:05 AM |
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Can you be more specific about schlagers? I know there are some Hanwei schlagers out there and I've actually got a Scottie schlager still in service.
If schlagers are out in general principle then I think the rules should be amended to specifically say that.
What is the reason for removing all schlagers? I recognize that there are better simulators out there but I don't think that is sufficient reason to disallow them at this time. There are still enough of these in service that it will negatively affect a significant number of people. If the desire is to weed these out because there are better simulators available, I would suggest that we wait a while longer. Let them be socialized out instead of legislated out. It worked for fibreglass.
Raoul |
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"So let us go and get killed where we are told to go. Is life worth the trouble of so many questions?" -Athos |
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Chrestien
Free Scholar
Posts:47
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| 07/23/2006 2:26 PM |
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While on the subject of Hanwei blades.
For the Practical Rapier is that just referring to the SH1098/SH1099 (these are the 43" and 37" blades we have been using for awhile now) or is it including the new SH2261?
http://www.casiberia.com/cas/product_details.asp?id=SH2261
They also have a dagger to match this (SH2262).
When we were doing the Sidesword experiment before the Hanwei Practical Mortuary Hilt (SH2076) was an allowed simulator. Do we know why it is not included now?
-- Chrestien
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 07/23/2006 10:17 PM |
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Chrestien - I forwarded your questions above to the SRM on Friday (as well as some other clarifications), and have not yet heard back. I am hoping for a response tomorrow or Tuesday....
As to Raoul's questions - I dont know.
My own preference is to see them removed completely. Like the fibreglass blades I find Schlagers to be a fairly poor simulator for Rapier. Within the Society rapier has the poor reputation as an actual combat skill because of the simple fact that we, for all perceptions, are fighting with small, wiry, pretend swords. At least rattan does a better job of simulating what they heavies are TRYING to do, then epee/foil/fibreglass and schlager blades can do for our own game. There are plenty of better options available out there that are inexpensive (nad highly expensive - depending on what you are looking at), that I do not personally see the high level of negative impact that you mention.
This is something that will be better answered by understanding what people are really using out there right now. As far as I know, I have not seen many of these blades at events lately - but I could just not be remembering.
While not a large representation of the An Tir rapier community, perhaps this will become the August Poll on this site - to determine what the general breakdown looks like for the use of different simulator types. Responses from this poll will be used to determine whether or not the Schlager blades remain off the approved blade list or not for the next round of reviews. Sound workable for now?
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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Raoul
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| 07/24/2006 10:31 AM |
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Sounds like a plan. I would suggest also gathering information via other means as well.
Raoul |
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"So let us go and get killed where we are told to go. Is life worth the trouble of so many questions?" -Athos |
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Sebastien
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| 07/24/2006 3:28 PM |
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I'm still seeing a number of schlagers out there myself. While I agree they are a poor simulator i don't think we should remove them at this time. No one has had any specific safety problems with them so its hard to justify to me their removal.
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Sebastien de Caen
There is no kill like overkill. |
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Dormouse
Provost
Posts:113
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| 07/24/2006 6:38 PM |
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They should stay off the list.
They are substandard rapier simulators. For that reason alone they should stay off the list.
Craig/Dormouse |
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I humble myself before God, and there the list ends.
--- Maj. Gen. Sam Houston (The Alamo 2004) |
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Alvarro
Too many posts...
Posts:301
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| 07/26/2006 12:27 PM |
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Oh, mercy, mercy me.
I just tried the new cup-hilt practical from hanwei. It's lovely. And absolute yes for including it in c&t...maybe for rapier, as it's a wee stiff. About equal to a gus rapier, if he made them in this price range.
I'm gonna buy one. |
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Prudence. Temperance. Fortitude. Justice. |
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Sebastien
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| 07/26/2006 3:15 PM |
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I've been thinking about this for a couple days so now I'm now going to be the voice of dissent about some of the blade changes put forward.
Fiberglass:
Yuck - definitely no longer allowed for tourneys etc. But I feel we should allow for use for practice purposes. Not all practice sites have the luxury of having spare equipment for people to try out. I'm talking about the people who are just becoming interested and want to see what happens. I think having fiberglass legal for practice with the caveat that authorization is done with metal only would allow people to try rapier out and then buy metal as they get closer to authorizing.
Schlagers:
Sorry, the fact that they are not perfect simulators is not good enough to me to ban their use. We have no safety issues with them. I would prefer to see us encourage people to not purchase schlagers but to allow those who have them to continue to use them. Possibly putting a 2 year limit on their use for those grandfathered in.
Alchem:
First - when were they disallowed? This was never published and no one was notified.
Second - Daggers - I actually don't mind them being removed if they are a safety issue and I can explain that. But I need a little more info to explain that. How many have broken, anyone injured? My current memory has less of these daggers being broken then the Hanwei blades and we didn't pull them.
Third - If the only reason we are pulling the swords is that the marshals cannot tell the approved blades from the non-approved blades, I'd prefer to get the marshals better trained. The marshals should be able to make that distinction.
We all are concerned about the lack of growth in the rapier community. We need to be aware that not everyone who is playing or is interested in playing can afford to drop the money on new blades all the time. If the blades in use are safe we should continue to allow their use, with encouragement to move to the better blades. These changes could drive away some people that already play and discourage others from starting which is not what we want.
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Sebastien de Caen
There is no kill like overkill. |
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SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
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| 07/26/2006 5:37 PM |
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Sebastien wrote:
"We all are concerned about the lack of growth in the rapier community"
Sorry to burst your bubble, but I wouldn't be in the least bit concerned if it shrank by 80%. But that is just me.
On the other hand, I can see your point about fiberglass in a practice situation only.
Paul |
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Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
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Alvarro
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| 07/27/2006 12:23 PM |
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Cheap weapons actually drive people away from joining a practice. They want to join an activity that looks serious. Ditch the fiberglass and rapier will be more popular.
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Prudence. Temperance. Fortitude. Justice. |
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Sebastien
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| 07/27/2006 2:29 PM |
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| Yeah but I don't personally have the funds to buy the weapons and since we don't charge to come to practice we have no funds to replace them. And the reality has been that as people get thru the practices/classes, if they are interested they will get the metal blades. They prefer to have their own rather then to borrow. But the fiberglass gets them somethig they can use in the mean time. |
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Sebastien de Caen
There is no kill like overkill. |
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Raoul
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Posts:268
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| 07/27/2006 2:49 PM |
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We've purchased enough gear to suit up new people and we don't charge for our practices. The group as a whole supports the purchase of loaner gear as it is important to overall recruitment efforts.
Raoul |
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"So let us go and get killed where we are told to go. Is life worth the trouble of so many questions?" -Athos |
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Dormouse
Provost
Posts:113
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| 07/27/2006 6:00 PM |
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No, no, no... There is no justification for using fiberglass.
It'd be like training a new skydiver with an old T-10 rig with a Para-Commander (round, steerable (?) parachute) and a belly mounted round reserve.
For the first part, it's not teaching the new student with what is, in effect, the norm of equipment. It's givin' them a rough transfer when they go to a proper simulator.
When I started, we had only one choice, we buy a foil and if we really wanted to be fancy we put an epee bell on it and drill it for a piece of 1/4 inch bar stock for the quillons.
As a high shool and college student, it was a hardship to come up with the bucks to get the replacement blades, so I had to save my pennies, and get the best blades I could get that would last longest, and care for them.
If someone wants to do this bad enough they'll find a way to get the equipment. I don't know of any group that does have anyone without extra kit to lend out.
It's time we got away from this societal insistance on instant gratification. It's not the end of the world if someone has to wait a bit.
Dormouse |
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I humble myself before God, and there the list ends.
--- Maj. Gen. Sam Houston (The Alamo 2004) |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 07/27/2006 6:15 PM |
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Mouse - nice example.  |
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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Raoul
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Posts:268
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| 07/27/2006 6:24 PM |
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I'd still like to see the current list of approved blades at the corporate level. Do you have a copy of such a list Ramone? If so could you post it?
Raoul |
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"So let us go and get killed where we are told to go. Is life worth the trouble of so many questions?" -Athos |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 07/27/2006 8:44 PM |
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| Actually - no I cannot. At least, not quite yet. The Rapier Rules get to go through BOD approval again. |
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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CM_Unger
Provost
Posts:84
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| 07/30/2006 8:21 PM |
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WKC - I for one would like to see them continue being allowed. sure they aren't the best simulator out there, but they are a very reliable and widespread blade. Taking them out simply because they are not 'sexy' or whatever is silly. That would be like telling an archer that his longbow is nice, but it's not Yew so he can't shoot it.
If they do need to be removed, at least grandfather the ones around already so people who have dumped good money on them can still use them .
Mark |
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CM_Unger
Provost
Posts:84
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| 07/30/2006 8:25 PM |
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Alchem daggers - did I see somewhere that currently some of the alchem daggers are ok,and some are not. could we add in something that would aid i IDing which is which? (i.e. the 'fuller' is 6" long on approved blades)
Am I correct that they are being removed because some have broken? Have any of them broken in an unsafe mannor. I know we never want a blade to break. I had one break, and it was right at the block by the guard. it was very 'safe' for a break (much safer than the sword breaks I've seen)
Mark |
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