| Author |
Messages |
|
Alvarro
Too many posts...
Posts:301
 |
| 08/01/2006 12:24 PM |
 Alert
|
Lotsa talk about this, but I really don't think a lot of people really know what it means.
It's pretty simple. Make everything as close as possible to the reality of the times.
As close as possible. That's really it. Everyone should make an *honest* effort to doing this.
It doesn't mean that you have to bury yourself in a period manual, and spend all your time dithering
over the interpration of every sentence. That would be boring, and if this isn't fun, it's not worth doing.
It does mean that everyone should spend a bit of time thinking about your own game, and how you
approach fighting. Over 80% of the SCA fighters I've met have no...and I mean NO respect for the blade
in the opponents hand. They neither adress it nor care about what it does. They simply try to kill the
opponent. Preferably first, but that doesn't appear to be much of a concern.
How is this different from modern fencing?
Do we want to be modern fencing in funny clothes?
Well, I suppose some people do. They may not think they do, but they act like they do.
But most of you don't want that. You wouldn't have joined the SCA, otherwise. You joined because you had a great romantic ideal that things used to be better in some deep, deep way. And by joining and participating in the SCA you started to make that ideal come true, as best you could.
If you keep that spirit up, you are being a period fencer. There is no magic technique, no perfect manual, just a lot of common sense. That common sense, applied over time, will result in a form of fencing that is going to be as close as possible to the reality of the times. Don't let anyone tell you anything else. Don't let yourself compromise, either. You will find a lot of support. If no elses, you will have mine.
|
|
Prudence. Temperance. Fortitude. Justice. |
|
|
SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
|
| 08/01/2006 2:23 PM |
Alert
|
Excellent post Randy. I imagine not to long ago I was in that 80%, but after a little bit of learning I have found the other 20% is a lot more fun.
Paul |
|
Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
|
|
Tora
Provost
Posts:105
|
| 08/02/2006 2:38 PM |
Alert
|
It's been my experience that tournaments which adhere to the destructive double-kill standard tend to teach fencers a respect for what their opponent's blade is doing in a very short period of time.
Tora |
|
Tora
I'm the optimist who plans for when the pessimist is right. |
|
|
Alvarro
Too many posts...
Posts:301
|
| 08/02/2006 3:17 PM |
Alert
|
Soooooometimes....sometimes it promotes a "I died, but I took that guy out with me!" style of fighting.
Basically any kind of mandated rule eventually seems to create rule-jockeys.
But explaining how blades work, what they do, and frequent reminders during practice seems to really do a lot. It certainly makes it easier if you do a little direct period instruction on things like stringere, so people have a physical technique to practice the concepts, but even without that, the right kind of good practice could eventually lead to the same understanding.
And really, nothing beats lots of examples of good, clean fighters! |
|
Prudence. Temperance. Fortitude. Justice. |
|
|
Cordell
Scholar
Posts:19
|
| 08/02/2006 6:07 PM |
Alert
|
Well, this is an interesting discussion.. Really.
You know me Alvarro.. you've crossed blades with me.. Now I ask.. what percentage am I in?
I love the game.. The SCA "game".. without the period policing.. I'm the same way with Rapier. I enjoy the comraderie and the thrill of the combat without having to delve into manuals and drills and such.. I don't learn well from drilling.. I do, I learn. That's it.. I listen to what my "betters" have to say, watch how they do their thing and realize.. I need to find what works for me, whether it be recreating specific combat techniques from the "masters" or developing my own way of doing things..
Either way.. I gotta have fun..
So.. where do I fit??
By the by.. I do miss the chance to cross blades with you.. Hope to see you again soon.
L8R |
|
|
|
|
Alvarro
Too many posts...
Posts:301
|
| 08/02/2006 7:36 PM |
Alert
|
Cordell,
I'd put you in the 20%. You care more about having fun than winning...and you define "having fun" as a really, really good fight. You take a different route, but the goal and results are the same.
Going to clinton? |
|
Prudence. Temperance. Fortitude. Justice. |
|
|
Gwydion
Free Scholar
Posts:59
|
| 08/02/2006 11:01 PM |
Alert
|
Alvarro...
I must say that the WS has made you ever more willing to discuss issues such as periodness, and it's great to see folk such as yourself promote the fun aspect as well.
I feel at times the seriousness of our studies into rapier take over, and we forget what brought us to the study of it...because it's really freaking fun!
as to where I fit... I'd like to say the 20%, because of ALBERT (yeah, had to eliminate about 99% of my "tricks" because they don't always work)... but I do sport fence and it crosses over occasionally.
I used to win a lot, then after becoming more period...I lost a lot...a helluva lot!... Now I win more than lose, and am having a lot of fun ...and I take my garb a lot more seriously as well... now...a deltin or two in the future, a few more manuals to glean lessons from, and a lot more events watching you and Guido sidesword it...and I'll be even happier.
I'm off to Clinton thursday morning...see many of you there... just poke around the Manticore encampment as we're always willing to fight and learn.
Gwydion
|
|
God defend me from my friends; from my enemies I can defend myself.
|
|
|
Mat
Provost
Posts:123
|
| 08/03/2006 3:15 AM |
Alert
|
like the learning curve that the period techniques offer.
I'm also a pretty systematic learner; without a system to use as a basis, I'm pretty much lost.
But because I often take my fighting a little bit to seriously at times, I get stressed out and frustrated to the point that I have to walk away.
I always come back for more.
At times, I've been so frustrated at myself or how I'm doing that I've literally thrown my gear (into the bushes, onto the ground, yeah...)
Everybody has a breaking point, and it's pretty much got a mind of it's own.
But there's a balance; between the serious side and the fun side of things, I do enjoy rapier! If I didn't, obviously I wouldn't be participating and learning about it. It's an area of interest that's stuck since I started doing it back in Grade 12. I think the first time I thought "wow, that's cool! With the swish and the stab and the wit!" was in english class in grade 8, we were watching "The Princess Bride."
Go figure that it would stick in the subconscious until four years after the fact.
More recently, having been participating in rapier since 2002, throughout the ups and downs, it's the only sport/martial art/game that's actually held my interest; there's just so much too it; I'm always learning something new.
And not only does it get me out of kelowna, I've met a lot of different people through rapier. I think one of the cooler things is that each person involved has their own take on swordplay; it leaves a lot open for experimentation and whatnot. It's unique and something different.
But then, for those that don't even know about it, it's also fun to watch people's reactions when they express a dramatic double-take when you tell them your plans for the weekend.  |
|
Git-r-dun! |
|
|
Kristophe
Provost
Posts:81
|
| 08/03/2006 8:41 AM |
Alert
|
Good thread Alvarro.
I think the primary reason SCA fencing has issues with 'periodness' and realism is the lack of consequences. People dont' die, they don't even really get hurt and no-one's honor or reputation are on the line. As such, worrying about getting blade dominance, controlling measure, contra-guardia etc. is less important than gunning for that "quick kill". If you get that one shot snipe 5 times out of 10 most fighters would feel pretty good - because they don't realize that 50% of the time they would have died in period.
Now you look at period - in which things are riding on the line - and suddenly concepts such as stringere and contra-guardia arise because the fighter wants to ensure they have as much of an advantage as they can. The guards become less methods of initiating attacks and become more defensive in nature etc.
While I've been out of the SCA for a long time I do recall listening to a conversation between two heavy fighters once that ran something like "Sure, I'd let them take my legs if I could get the killshot . . .". While it's tactically sound for tourney fighting, imagine being in period and letting someone cut your legs off so you could "win". I wonder what would happen in an SCA tourney that was single elimination, retained wounds and had destructive double kills. I think the fight methodology would change alot.
I do believe that people need to spend time reading period sources - not only because it's a good insight into the technique but because it also teaches the proper mindset. I'm sure somewhere in the 12th night lists some rapier fighter has had a similar decision as the heavy fighters mentioned above. I ask now - if you executed perfect period technique but opted to trade a leg for a killshot . . . would that be a period fight?
|
|
|
|
|
Cordell
Scholar
Posts:19
|
| 08/03/2006 8:52 AM |
Alert
|
*clap clap clap clap*
Yay Kristophe.. I like what you had to say.. especially the lose a leg for the kill concepts.. so true.. but what that really means is, until we take the blunties off and sharpen the edges.. and really follow through on our attacks.. We will NEVER have a period fight..
And yes "Don" Alvarro.. I will be at Clinton..YAY! |
|
|
|
|
SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
|
| 08/03/2006 9:52 AM |
Alert
|
Albert,
I'm not shocked, I just figure that Mouse has the brain.
Paul |
|
Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
|
|
Kristophe
Provost
Posts:81
|
| 08/03/2006 1:40 PM |
Alert
|
".. I like what you had to say.. especially the lose a leg for the kill
concepts.. so true.. but what that really means is, until we take the
blunties off and sharpen the edges.. and really follow through on our
attacks.. We will NEVER have a period fight.."
I don't know if I'd go that far. A "period" fight would obviously be a combination of a few factors: a good simulator weapon, a grasp on period technique, and a grasp on the period mindset. We have the simulators, we have the grasp of period fight technique (if folks choose to learn it) so all we're really lacking is the period mindset.
One of the issues we have is people 'rules lawyering' to gain an advantage. IE: we now need length restrictions on fibreglass because someone built and used an estoc. Rather than playing with the rules to win a fight they should ask themselves if these weapons ever saw the light of day in the styles we're recreating. Does beating someone because you 'lawyered' them to death make you a better fighter?
Every day we build better weapons, translate more manuals, learn new techniques . . . but I think we need to change the way the game is played mentally before we really 'recreate' anything. Until then we're playing tag with metal sticks.
|
|
|
|
|
Luciano
Provost
Posts:144
|
| 08/03/2006 3:22 PM |
Alert
|
Posted By Kristophe on 08-03-2006 8:41 AM
I wonder what would happen in an SCA tourney that was single elimination, retained wounds and had destructive double kills. I think the fight methodology would change alot.
One tournament, nothing would change. I've run them many times, and people still fight the way they always did. Now, if every tournament was like that, people might start getting the picture. If you drove 10 hours and only got to have one fight, you might start looking at each fight with a little more caution.
Luciano |
|
|
|
|
Lothaire
Novice
Posts:5
|
| 08/03/2006 11:03 PM |
Alert
|
A rhetorical question from a Nerb . . .
So as we are all striving to recreate a period in history where the blade meant life or death, and deal with this within an environment such as the SCA, then does it come down to "Win or be Period?" Like the case seems to be now, or can we achieve both? And not just with the mindset?
Incidently . . . I agree with Kristophe. I am fashioned to the idea of recreating a period style where everthing I do is documented (assuming I'm doing it correctly). It brings the past to life for me with every movement of my blade. And my death(s) so to speak.
Lothaire |
|
|
|
|
Tora
Provost
Posts:105
|
| 08/05/2006 12:47 PM |
Alert
|
"Not being able to fight for several months because you got "killed" might provoke some thought."
Not the best idea here, since that would only serve to steadily reduce the number of players that come out to the tournaments as the season progresses. I do, however, think it's an excellent idea to have every single tournament be held as a single elimination, wounds retained through to its end. Except perhaps at the end, where suddenly both fighters might be "healed" of any wounds that may have carried over and the final victor determined by a best out of three. After all, everyone loves a good contest between the day's best.
Tora |
|
Tora
I'm the optimist who plans for when the pessimist is right. |
|
|
Sebastien
Has a lot to say...
Posts:208
|
| 08/06/2006 9:22 PM |
Alert
|
| Funny thing about that tourney, all four of the finalist now have their WS. However I remembered that tourney longer then any other I've been in for how it ended and how I didn't ever want to end a tourney that way again. Worked for me anyway. |
|
Sebastien de Caen
There is no kill like overkill. |
|
|
Kristophe
Provost
Posts:81
|
| 08/09/2006 9:53 PM |
Alert
|
Personally, I would say the next question should be how do we improve the current status of things. I think most are in agreement that we've identified a fundamental problem in our game, the next step is to find a way to begin addressing it. I believe the mindset issue is a greater concern than whether someone's lunge is perfectly period or their technique is slightly off.
- Someone could create an 'Ithra' tract dealing with realism in combat and SCA mindset vs. period mindset.
- Or we could draft up some kind of introductory handout and make it available via the WWW addressing this issue. Something that the various instructors etc. could print out and use as a base handout.
- What if the various Don's addressed it with their respective cadets and perhaps it could filter down from the top that way. (Of course, I would assume that most Don's have already discussed something like this but I'm including it for thoroughness).
- Or perhaps it could be done as a TRP handout before events or tourneys.
Perhaps these ideas have been tried before - as I say I've been out of things for a few years. Just trying to address a concern I have.
|
|
|
|
|
Samauel
Free Scholar
Posts:58
|
| 08/17/2006 11:38 PM |
Alert
|
| I think a large part of addressing this can be found in our ruleset. To win at a sport is by some part, a way to use or play by rules that govern what defines a win. For example, the Tattershall rules are ones that I feel very well use the rules in a way that does not encourage a technical win. I have found that when I have done a fight under those rules, it changes many things. No hand sniping, no movement that is not guarded, etc. The attack, to be useful has to be both the best attack you can deliver and one that also negates any reposte by the opponnet. Just being able to out gun the other guy is not always good enough. |
|
|
|
|
jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
|
| 08/19/2006 12:10 AM |
Alert
|
| Samauel, you are going to have to re-write that post. I am afraid that I am not understanding what you are trying to say at all... |
|
Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
|
|
Guillemin
Provost
Posts:120
|
| 08/19/2006 8:14 AM |
Alert
|
Hey all,
Just to throw out an idea they used at Pennsic for one of the tournaments (the Authentic Accroutrements Tournament). It was a pretty standard single elimination format, but competitiors had to have documentable clothing and fighting technique, which was graded by the marshals and processed along with how people fought to determine the winner. So the winner didn't actually win the tourney, but did reasonably well, was dressed appropriately, and fought a very solid and easily recognizable Fabris. I didn't fight, but I observed and people had a great time, and it looked fantastic to observers.
Guillemin |
|
Guillemin de Rouen
Cadet to Raoul Delaroche
Rapier Champion of Avacal |
|
|
|