Samauel
Free Scholar
Posts:58
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| 08/08/2006 11:47 PM |
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| I was talking to Donya Diana, and she had some information that some people wanted a different title, something that was given for good looks or something, I don't know. At any rate, a discussion about the purpose of the already given rapier titles or awards might not be a bad idea. Even if you don't agree with those that want or advocate for them, knowing what some folks in the rapier community might want is one purpose to this thing. |
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Lasairiona
Provost
Posts:87
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| 08/09/2006 10:43 AM |
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I think the tea sounds like a fine idea. I can make butter tarts.
One item that has reared it's ugly head is how do we better train/authorize our fighters.
Recently a large group showed up with similar, failing gorgets to an event.
One individual reportedly squawked about the recent rule change concerning the rigidity of gorgets.
We all know he/she was wrong, there has been no such change.
Why was this fighter authorized or allowed to fight previously with said inadequate armour?
Any of them for that matter. Clearly there is a bit of problem here.
Perhaps reauthorization should include a run through of the rules again.
I'd bet you be surprised how many of them forget things like the actual max size of a buckler, or the specifics on testing steel blades for stiffness?
How many of them have even performed such a test?
but yeah count me in on the tea,
Lasairiona |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 08/09/2006 10:52 AM |
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Posted By Lasairiona on 08-09-2006 10:43 AM
One item that has reared it's ugly head is how do we better train/authorize our fighters.
Lasairiona , not disagreeing with you in the slightest on this topic - I think it is a good one. But I do find it interesting that this topic was discussed to death at last year's Rapier Forum, and yet we are still in the same place...
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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Lasairiona
Provost
Posts:87
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| 08/09/2006 11:06 AM |
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I know Ramon. I know.
Obviously we didn't fix anything from last year did we?
Actually the fact that we have to bring it up again, is sad.
Since it is rather an important point.
You'll note though I do suggest ramping up the re-auth process.
Perhaps this is the point to be discussed.
-Las |
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Dormouse
Provost
Posts:113
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| 08/09/2006 4:33 PM |
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Until the authorizing marshals decide to buck up follow the authorizing guidlines, and learn to say "No, you're not ready at this time." this problem will continue.
This has been a problem since I came to this Kingdom. And the cause remains the same. Authorizing marshals who won't say no.
The second problem is the offending marshals are not disciplined, or if disciplinary actions are taken they're often reversed by higher authority.
But the primary problem is the authorizing marshals themselves.
I'll never forget the unmitigated crap I took when I required reauthorizing of several fighters who had been authorized by a marshal with questionable authorization practices.
The only answer I see is that nobody really wants to change the status quo.
Dormouse |
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I humble myself before God, and there the list ends.
--- Maj. Gen. Sam Houston (The Alamo 2004) |
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Lasairiona
Provost
Posts:87
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| 08/10/2006 7:54 AM |
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Posted By Albert_Faulke on 08-09-2006 8:25 PM
As Mouse noted, this isn't a rules problem, but one of application. As long as the offending marshals or fighters remain in the system, you'll have the same problem. It won't matter how strict you make the rules because they aren't being followed.
That is true, yes I see that.
What if we try and have people reauth with another marshall than the one who gave you your card?
With that guideline in place along with stiffer reauth, We could weed out the bad seeds that slipped through the cracks.
-Las
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SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
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| 08/10/2006 8:58 AM |
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Lasairiona wrote:
“That is true, yes I see that. What if we try and have people reauth with another marshall than the one who gave you your card? With that guideline in place along with stiffer reauth, We could weed out the bad seeds that slipped through the cracks. –Las”
The problem with that is a reauthorization (unless you have some sort of official sanction against you) is really only the re-filing of a waiver. The proof of this is the fact that if you are authorized say for Rapier and Heavy Armored Combat, a heavy Senior can sign your card and you are good to go for both disciplines. This is per the Earl Marshal.
Personally I think this is a massive hole in the system, and not just for rapier. The only way around this that I can think of is multiple authorization cards if you are a participant in more than one discipline.
Paul |
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Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
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Eira
Provost
Posts:79
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| 08/10/2006 1:09 PM |
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Posted By Albert_Faulke on 08-10-2006 10:07 AM
Good point, Simon. Another way could be to require marshal training that includes a basic understanding of all the martial forms.
I think that is an excellent idea, and I prefer it over Simon's simply for the fact that I have enough problem keeping track of 1 yellow card for 3 years let alone several.
And you know for rapier and heavy, some of the rules are very similar or even the same, I couldn't see it being all that difficult for a marshall to have enough of a basic knowledge of the other combat forms. But then again, I'm not a marshal... |
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Eira Halladottir, Man-At-Arms to Cadet Hamish MacCarraig |
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Melusine
Scholar
Posts:26
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| 08/10/2006 3:00 PM |
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I am a marshall, for both heavy and rapier. The rules are different enough to require 2 authorizations for marshals. Yes, some are the same, but that very sameness causes problems when someone assumes the rest will be.
Count me as one of the "enforce the rules we have" bunch. Let's make sure the inspections we're supposed to be doing (at practices, every two years on armour, etc.) are getting done and done well. Let's make sure that we don't authorize people who don't understand ALL the rules. And, if neccesary, pull the cards of those who don't.
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 08/12/2006 4:57 PM |
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The problem with that is a reauthorization (unless you have some sort of official sanction against you) is really only the re-filing of a waiver. The proof of this is the fact that if you are authorized say for Rapier and Heavy Armored Combat, a heavy Senior can sign your card and you are good to go for both disciplines. This is per the Earl Marshal.
Point of clarification - this has changed slightly in the newest revision of the rules draft. The change is as follows:
"...testing is not required for a fighter to re-authorize, unless their existing authorization expired more than one year prior.."
Roughly, the document is not in front of me right now....
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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Alessandra
Novice
Posts:2
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| 08/13/2006 10:17 AM |
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Eira et al. (FYI, rather long reply)
"Simon's way" is the only way currently. And it was put into place so that participants did not have to spend months tracking down the up to five different senior marshals in order to have a single card cover all their skills. If you are currently authorized in more than one discipline -- I'll pick on Amber Sylvanus here -- the other sr marshal is not technically "signing you off" for rapier. They are continuing your waiver.
Amber is authorized for Missile - bow & arrow and thrown axe and Rapier - rapier, case and rbg as well as being a Missile Junior marshal, Rapier Senior marshal, and Target Archery junior marshal. Her card expires Apr-27-2009. She was authorized by Jack Tyler in Rapier and Leonidas in Missile and Target. So, come March 2009 she contacts a M/Sr to reauthorize. They sign her off and a witness also signs the paperwork. Kingdom Lists gets the card. Jack Tyler's name remains as the R/Sr who was originally responsible for signing her paperwork. Leonidas' name remains as the TAM/Sr who was originally responsible for that portion. The new M/Sr name only goes in the Missile Senior box. Because she already had the rapier and TAM skills/marshal level there are no problems and she gets her confirmation email as soon as the KLM can get to it.
If, however unlikely, there were to be some issue with Amber's rapier skill the marshal responsible for having authorized her is Jack Tyler.
Now, the only problem I see with the reauthorization being even more of a rubberstamped process than it already is, is that if Amber were to have a new R/Sr sign her reauth paperwork, the new marshal is responsible for having signed her off AND HASN'T REVIEWED HER SKILLS OR KNOWLEDGE!!! I was under the impression that the reauthorization process was to help catch folks that earlier boboheads had allowed into the system.
My $0.02 cents USD from the paperwork side of things.
HL Alessandra
Kingdom Lists Minister (until 12th Night 2007) |
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Alessandra
Novice
Posts:2
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| 08/14/2006 10:12 PM |
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"If you are currently authorized in more than one discipline -- I'll pick on Amber Sylvanus here -- the other sr marshal is not technically "signing you off" for rapier. They are continuing your waiver."
Additionally, you can only be signed off for existing skills in a discipline foreign to the Sr performing the re-auth.
Example: Amber is authorized for bow & arrow and thrown axe. She can NOT have Jack Tyler sign her Rapier and have javelin checked off as well. That is a new skill in a discipline Jack is not a Sr Marshal for. It will result in a partial confirmation and recommendation to re-authorize (again!) by KLM.
In other words, look them up on the online roster. Even asking them for an old card is a potshot, since I'm sure everyone that I tell are unconfirmed for something cross it off.
Alessandra, KLM |
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Samauel
Free Scholar
Posts:58
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| 08/16/2006 11:12 PM |
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Justin.
Does it matter? As I was told, there was some people that wanted some sort of different or extra titles in rapier. It's an open ended topic. If someone has a good point about why they feel some other titles are needed, there's no harm in talking about it. |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 08/17/2006 11:38 AM |
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Samauel - I am not sure what you are replying to. I never said we could not, or should not, talk about anything related to "titles" - all I asked was what you meant by titles. And you already answered that question a few weeks back anyways.
Now I am confused..... ;)
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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TdB
Free Scholar
Posts:58
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| 08/17/2006 1:44 PM |
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Wow, could we get a list of these people who want special rapier titles for non-rapier related stuff (I can't even say "activies" there)? I believe "Idiot" and "Moron" are both currently available for use, and I'm happy to start applying them. These must be the same sort of people who cry "Mah boy Cletus done failed all his classes again this year but you can't hold him back a grade because it'd be bad for his self esteem." We're not here to boost the self esteem of incompetents. The SCA is already title- and award-happy. Don't go making it worse.
Here are some valid topics for discussion:
1) Why is it that after all this time, with all the good instruction available to anyone who wants to make use of it, so many members of the rapier community still can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag?
2) Why are there so few rapier academies these days?
3) Why is it that the SCA rapier community isn't attracting new players? (hint: see question 1)
4) Should we ban rapier "war scenarios" since fifty clueless noobs running around a field with pointy objects can't possibly be safe, and since late period war scenarios should be done with musket and pike anyway?
Remember folks, this thread isn't for actually discussing the topics, it's for deciding what to discuss at the tea.
Cheers,
TdB
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I'm not unapproachable. I just have a low tolerance for idiots. |
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OK, fine, I'm unapproachable. Keep your distance or I'll pez you. |
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SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
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| 08/17/2006 2:03 PM |
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And to stay on Thoré's tack, Bobohead and Chump are both available too.
Welcome back Thoré.
Paul |
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Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
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Dormouse
Provost
Posts:113
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| 08/17/2006 7:19 PM |
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Welcome back, Thore!
Couldn't have said it better my-own-self...
Dormouse
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I humble myself before God, and there the list ends.
--- Maj. Gen. Sam Houston (The Alamo 2004) |
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Samauel
Free Scholar
Posts:58
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| 08/17/2006 11:45 PM |
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I didn't see a page two Ramone....
I had another idea on titles too. What about something like service stripes? Or maybe hash marks like what we have on dress military uniforms? The idea of service stripes would be like how you can get the same award a few times, earning an oakleaf cluster, or the hash marks to note years of service? |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 08/18/2006 9:58 AM |
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Posted By Samauel on 08-17-2006 11:45 PM
I didn't see a page two Ramone....
You know - if you do not stop adding an "e" on to the end of my name, we are going to have words.
And if that is the case (not seeing page 2), I request that you not just dismiss others questions, and keep an open mind. To answer your previous question - yes, it does matter. I was curious, and I asked the question. You can say "I dont know", or "I have been asked not to say", or even "Screw you". At least those come across as honest answers. Questioning why someone is asking a question is just saying "none of your business", without being honest about it.
Posted By Samauel on 08-17-2006 11:45 PM
I had another idea on titles too. What about something like service stripes? Or maybe hash marks like what we have on dress military uniforms? The idea of service stripes would be like how you can get the same award a few times, earning an oakleaf cluster, or the hash marks to note years of service?
You have military on the brain, methinks. 
So what you are thinking is more like the "Guild" system tht a couple of other Kingdoms have in place, yes? Where they use a ranking system of scholar (anyone authorized to fight, that has taken the Scholar's Oath), free scholar (not sure, but apparently a prize is played to move "up"), and provost (I think the provosts are Atlantia's version of the OWS?), and there is an acknowledged "leadership" consisting of a Principal, Dean and Headmaster.
See here for more info: http://www.mindspring.com/~aedan/ |
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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Raoul
Has a lot to say...
Posts:269
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| 08/18/2006 1:02 PM |
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Here we go again.
Listen, if people want to make extra titles for themselves and set themselves up with a ranking system then they can form a household and they can call themselves whatever they want within that.
The rest of us who don't need some kind of a ladder to lift ouselves up or to keep others down want no part of it.
Since I won't be at September Crown to be at the tea I thought I'd express my opinion here.
Raoul |
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"So let us go and get killed where we are told to go. Is life worth the trouble of so many questions?" -Athos |
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