Kristophe
Provost
Posts:81
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| 07/11/2006 10:40 PM |
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I was wondering if anyone is making a serious study of the fight style of V. Saviolo? I'm aware that it's being done by WMA folks in Seattle but I can't seem to find any classes listed for Washington/BC SCA events. A few of us are interested in learning more about the style in general and could benefit from some instruction.
We do have copies of Stephen Hand's Practical Saviolo as well as a few other variations of the text. We're also working through the original source material directly - but a hand up would always be appreciated.
My thanks, in advance.
Regards,
Kristophe
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 07/12/2006 6:16 PM |
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FYI - Cecil Longino in Seattle (Acadamia Della Spada) has done much more in depth analysis of Saviolo's style, beyond what Stephen Hand had done previously (more on the Spanish footwork, etc). In fact, I remember hearing Stephen make a comment a couple of years ago about how much further Cecil had taken the work then he had himself (something kind of like that)....
At SCA events? Not really, no. The only person that I can think of who has taught a course on Silver in the past would be Don Samaual..... |
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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Kristophe
Provost
Posts:81
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| 07/12/2006 10:42 PM |
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We did actually contact Cecil (he was tops on our Saviolo guru list frankly), but email contact with him has been rather erratic. I would assume his schedule has been busy as the last 2 messages I sent haven't been replied to. Without wanting to pester him we figured we'd see if anyone had more time to give us a hand.
I'll email him again and see if perhaps he's putting on any weekend long seminars or some such. Thanks for the feedback.
Regards,
Kristophe |
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welder
Provost
Posts:95
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| 07/18/2006 7:22 PM |
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| Kristophe,
I study at Academia della Spada and I happen to know that Cecil has been having email difficulties for at least the last week or so. If you'd like to stop by class, we meet at Magnuson Park from 7-9pm on Wednesdays and on Saturdays from 1-3pm at Greenlake Park (for the next few weeks at least...then we go back to Magnuson on all days).
You are certainly welcome to come by during any class time, scope us out, and chat with any of us. My email is a little more reliable than Cecil's, so please feel free to drop me a line at william@academiadellaspada.com
-William Elder
Scholar of Fence
Academia della Spada |
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Kristophe
Provost
Posts:81
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| 07/18/2006 10:54 PM |
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Thanks William, I've sent you a direct email about this. Let me know if you haven't received it within a few days because maybe the problem is on my end. I may have to beat my PC with a stick again.
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Lessingham
Provost
Posts:121
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| 07/20/2006 9:35 AM |
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I have been working with Saviolo for about 5 years now. There are a lot of things that are not readily apparent on the surface.
I have taken classes from Stephen Hand on the subject in the past. These were a great introdction. However, having come much further I find that Stephen's interpretation is very highly influenced by his work on George Silver.
I have taught several classes on Saviolo, including at last years A&W War, but I very rarely get that far north into Washington. I will howeve be teaching a class on the subject at KWAR this year. We will be covering idiosynchrasies of Saviolo' body movement and footwork and the text section of Saviolo's extended Ward (the first section of drills)
Jeff Richardson - aka L. Geoffrey Lessingham
Academia Duellatoria |
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"The Will is the captain general of our army and our fortress."
1587 F. Ghisliero pg. 108 |
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Lessingham
Provost
Posts:121
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| 07/20/2006 9:49 AM |
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Just for the record....
There are three reasons Saviolo is thought to be influenced by Distrezza.
1. He says he travelled and studied under many and diverse masters and congealed all those teachings into his single system. (this doesn't really say anything)
2. Saviolo' circular pace. (I can certainly find evidence of circular footwork in Italian Treatises, however I do agree that Saviolo goes beyond this to a high degree and his footwork seems indicative of Spanish footwork as I understand it. It also hs some very Italian things in it.)
3. What we have refered to as Saviolo's version of the "Estranio" This is a move very particular to the Spanish school and led to the connections that created Stephen Hand's article in SPADA. The last year or so I have found myself becoming less convinced that this is true. Saviolo's movement here is more like an Italian attack in Prima with the left leg advanced advancing the weapon. A spanish Estranio is referd to as the "Strange Ward" in part because it very specifically includes retracting the weapon arm as you step around rather than leading with it.
Jeff Richardson
cademia Duellatoria |
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"The Will is the captain general of our army and our fortress."
1587 F. Ghisliero pg. 108 |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 07/20/2006 10:58 AM |
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Posted By welder on 07-18-2006 7:22 PM
If you'd like to stop by class, we meet at Magnuson Park from 7-9pm on Wednesdays and on Saturdays from 1-3pm at Greenlake Park
FTI - Kristophe lives North(?) of Vancouver BC, if memory serves... |
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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welder
Provost
Posts:95
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| 07/20/2006 12:50 PM |
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Posted By Lessingham on 07-20-2006 9:49 AM
The last year or so I have found myself becoming less convinced that this is true. Saviolo's movement here is more like an Italian attack in Prima with the left leg advanced advancing the weapon. A spanish Estranio is referd to as the "Strange Ward" in part because it very specifically includes retracting the weapon arm as you step around rather than leading with it.
The estraño is "strange" in Destreza because it does two things that are at odds with the normal Spanish fight: the diestro steps in with his left foot, and he allows his sword to "collapse" back toward himself somewhat. The motivation behind stepping with the left foot is pretty straightforward; it brings the left hand to a position where it can take control of the opponent's hilt. Because of the close distance, an extended sword would push past the opponent's debole and toward their strong, giving them more control. The reason that a Spanish fencer, whose sword is normally at full extension, withdraws his blade as he steps in is to avoid losing blade advantage.
A fencer after the style of Saviolo (a Saviolist?) could initiate this action from the short ward or (more likely) the long, and yet he would still have to ensure that the strong of his blade controlled the weak of his opponent's, and thus would be required to adjust his blade position as he closed the distance with his left foot. Against an opponent whose sword is held in the high line--that is, one whose hilt is low and whose point is high--rolling to prima increases blade advantage in a similar way to withdrawing the point. Since Saviolo presumes such a ward from his opponent when chatting with Luke, it is only natural that he should offer that strategy.
My point here is that the details of this technique are dictated by the circumstances of blade extension and orientation in such a way that even a trained diestro, blackmailed into using Saviolo's wards, would find himself performing the actions in a very similar way to that described in His Practice simply because of the differences in mechanics. I'd be shocked to find that any sword art didn't have a version of "grab their hilt with your left hand while controlling their sword with yours", and so I'm not sure it can be said for certain that its origins are Italian, Spanish, or from the Golden Boot school of Tai Kwon Leep.
-William
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 07/20/2006 9:30 PM |
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| Maybe this is due to all of these styles being influenced by Atlantis. |
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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Gemma~
Provost
Posts:97
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| 07/21/2006 4:40 AM |
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-East...he lives in Kelowna. However, he is thinking about making the trek to Bows ans Blades I hear.
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Kristophe
Provost
Posts:81
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| 07/21/2006 9:51 AM |
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Yep, Kelowna is about 4 hours east of Vancouver as a reference point.
Gemma: Unfortunately I won't make it to Bows & Blades this year - it was on the list but some work coverage issues arose. I will however be in your neck of the woods so you can spend some time stabbing me. Your practice nights are on Wednesday's right?
Welder: Thanks for the help William - I'm in contact with Cecil again and he's being very helpful in trying to put something together for us. Apparently his computer exploded so I can understand the email problems we were having. If we're lucky we'll be visiting you folks sometime in the next 2 months.
Lessingham: We'd actually noted your class at KWAR this year but it's a 28 hour drive for us to get there. Some days I hate living where I do. Our region has 160K people but it's smack dab in the middle of nowhere so it's hard to get to these events. I'll watch for your future classes and if there's a chance I could meet you at an event sometime I'll happily bribe you with Canadian beer to pick your brain. I wish I'd been at Antir/West last year as the combination of your Saviolo class + the Destreza class afterwards would have been fun.
Thanks for the help everyone.
Regards,
-Kris
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welder
Provost
Posts:95
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| 07/23/2006 12:42 PM |
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Excellent, Kristophe. If things begin to gel, check with me about crash space. My in-laws are supposed to visit some time in that period, but if we luck out and miss them I may have room for a couple folks at my place. |
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Samauel
Free Scholar
Posts:58
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| 07/26/2006 12:04 AM |
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| Greetings,
I do Saviolo styled fighting and have been teaching it for 3 or 4 years now. I think it lends well to the SCA style of fight for a multitude of reasons, and find it generaly effective. I have taken classes from Cecil, and it freely borows from Spanish as well as older Italian styles. |
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Samauel
Free Scholar
Posts:58
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| 07/26/2006 4:28 PM |
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| BTW, Kristophe, I practice in Kent and sometimes in Seattle. If you would like to hook up at a practice, please let me know. |
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Kristophe
Provost
Posts:81
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| 07/27/2006 9:09 AM |
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Thanks Samauel - I'll take you up on that sometime.  I think we're getting things figured with Cecil Longino about visiting down there to attend one of his classes for a weekend. I'd love to come down again sometime and get your slant on the style if you're interested. We're about 5-7 hours out of Seattle so we can't just pop down for an evening class, but a longer weekend type of thing would be very worthwhile. And we'd bring beer.
The other thing we could do (if you're interested) is have you up here sometime to teach folks in our region. And we'd still bring beer. I'm sure we could defray travel costs and other things.
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