| Author |
Messages |
|
GuilleminDeRouen
Free Scholar
Posts:33
 |
| 09/17/2008 5:01 PM |
 Alert
|
Posted By Blayde on 09/17/2008 10:13 AM
The real measure of a rapier school or combat is whether your practice and principles are sound. Also, whether you have actually practiced those principles and can effectively execute said prinicples. If your school and or interpretation of historical and SCA regulated technique is sound, you should be doing well in tournaments. Winning tournaments is not just spiffy bonus you can just disregard. Tournaments are not for just the fast and the furious. They are the main test of whether a fighter has sound principles and skills.
The forum ate my reply AGAIN!
I agree with much of your post, Blayde, but I'd like to comment on the part about winning tournaments. Verith, you mentioned excellence and the ability to pass it on as the only two aspects to the OWS in your post, and I'd like to comment on that as well.
Tournaments are an important part in the development of the arte. Practicing the arte in pressure situations is important, as it's probably as close as we can get to the life and death situations of back in the day. Performance in tournaments counts for much. But 'performance', like 'excellence' in Verith's post, is about much more than technical ability with a blade.
The most obvious aspect of success in rapier, to the casual observer, is striking the other guy without getting hit. You can learn a little about a fighter's quality from his/her ability to do this consistently, win tourneys, and get cookies. Much more important than the overall result, however, is the ability to do so with the utmost courteousy and chivalry, and doing so cleanly. It is these principles that weave all members from all disciplines in the SCA together. Beside displaying for your opponent, your inspiration, the community, and the royalty your belief and adherance to these principles, winning means nothing. Winning is great, but the most successful fighters don't need to win to make an impression in any given tournament, they do it by their very actions and presence in the lists.
It has been well established in this conversation that the OWS should be among the most successful, excellent fighters in Kingdom. Combining the definitions above, the OWS is thus granted for the noteworthy combination of a high level of fighting ability and the understanding and respect for the values that make the SCA what it is (and the ability to pass that knowledge on to students).
I post this only because I think we're getting too narrow in our definitions of success, talent, and excellence, and it needs to be clearly stated in any discussion about admission into the OWS. It is a rehash of quite a bit that has been discussed already, but I think it bore mentioning again as we seem to be getting back into the unfortunate skill v. service debate.
An aside, quoted from Verith's post:
And also those of you who would like to see a peerage level award given to rapier, I think we have our work cut out for us. We first have to gain more respect of our heavy community. And that is going to be a up hill battle. I don't know how many times I have heard them say some Dis-respectful comment or put down. The latest was when I was at Autumn War there was a youth tourney going on in the eric next to us, and I heard "You don't want to grow up to be one of those wimpy wire wielders do you", and this is coming from those who call themselves the Chivalry, and this is what they are teaching the youth of the SCA. This may be alittle hard to swallow for some but we are a joke to most of the heaves out there, they all had a laugh, and not one spoke in our defense.
There are very few things that piss me off more than hearing members of the rapier community bitch about how the armoured guys don't respect us. The next time you hear someone disrespecting the rapier community in general, talk to them about it and challenge their assumptions and prejudices with facts. I've played rapier several times with HRH Vik (one of the most successful armoured fighters ever, and the Man who Will be King, as it were) and maybe I've even taught Him a couple of things. I used to think He didn't respect the rapier community in general. I learned over time that the only things He doesn't respect are those who perpetuate the stereotypes by their actions and those who, upon hearing someone criticize our game, go back to their camp and sulk instead of confronting him/her on it.
My thoughts. Fire away.
Guillemin de Rouen
Cadet to Raoul |
|
Guillemin de Rouen
Cadet to Raoul
Scar of Tir Righ |
|
|
Hob
Scholar
Posts:19
|
| 09/17/2008 6:01 PM |
Alert
|
Posted By Blayde on 09/17/2008 10:13 AM
Hob,
While I agree with your belief that this post is not about Tora....I would say it shouldn't be about Tora...but it did go that way. My previous post was a little education for those who may not get where he's coming from or why he started this thread.
Whoops, small failure of terminology there. When I said "this post" wasn't about Tora, I was referring to my reply to the thread. I saw the delightful arguments farther up the thread and figured I'd nip that in the bud. 
|
|
|
|
|
TheStudent
Novice
Posts:8
|
| 09/17/2008 6:41 PM |
Alert
|
| Guillemin, you come up with some good points, there are other things although secondary that should also be taken into consideration when looking at someone who may become a white scarf. What I disagree with is you being pissed off at people who hold some of the same views as you once did. Use your knowledge of those past expierences to enlighten the rest of us, not turn bitter towards those people who share those views. |
|
|
|
|
Hob
Scholar
Posts:19
|
| 09/17/2008 7:01 PM |
Alert
|
I really should know better than to argue with people online. http://xkcd.com/386/
To return to the original post that started this whole thing, Tora's proposal seems to boil down to "One uber tourney fighter gets veto power over who gets to be a White Scarf," and I just don't think that's a good idea. I've gotten lucky too often in tourneys to have any illusions that getting the first touch determines who is the better man. |
|
|
|
|
Eira
Provost
Posts:79
|
| 09/17/2008 10:22 PM |
Alert
|
I think the respect with the heavies goes both ways. I've heard a lot of negativity about the Chiv from rapier folk too. I think as with any situation you shouldn't expect respect, but you should earn it. There are a lot of ways that members of the rapier community can start earning respect from the heavies if they want to. Ever consider marshaling or waterbearing for a heavy tourney? I suspect if we started supporting them more, they would do so in turn.
That being said I don't know if that disrespect is so wide spread. I know in Avacal there is a pretty fantastic relationship between the heavies. We have Dons who fight armoured combat, light combat or marshal. We have large heavy households who fight rapier in war scenarios (The Fez Brigade!) We have rapier fighters who help waterbear heavy tournaments and heavy fighters who stick around to watch rapier tournaments. Clearly if we're helping each other freely then the respect is there....I think it just takes some effort and willingness to be more involved. |
|
Eira Halladottir, Man-At-Arms to Cadet Hamish MacCarraig |
|
|
TheStudent
Novice
Posts:8
|
| 09/18/2008 6:31 AM |
Alert
|
Your right Eira that respect cannot be simply given it has to be earned, If there was some way that rapier folk with these feeling could meet more of the Heavy community and intermingle then that would be good, even the two Orders,(OWS/Chiv), meeting together to at some point to talk over how to improve relations between us, (Although I don't know if that is possible, or if they do sort of thing that now). But I have to say also that their is favoritism out there, but that might have to do with the Chiv being a peerage LV award where rapier is held on a lower LV. Here's an interesting idea that would be cool for the future, if that one day we could hold some kind of tourney between heavys and cut/thrust.... Heck why not heavy vs rapier, (not for the faint of heart). hehe
Verith |
|
|
|
|
TheStudent
Novice
Posts:8
|
| 09/18/2008 6:42 AM |
Alert
|
| And Guillemin I feel for you man the forum ate 2 of my post too... hehe |
|
|
|
|
Eira
Provost
Posts:79
|
| 09/18/2008 7:55 AM |
Alert
|
I've started a new topic about this, so as to not further derail this particular thread off topic.
|
|
Eira Halladottir, Man-At-Arms to Cadet Hamish MacCarraig |
|
|
GuilleminDeRouen
Free Scholar
Posts:33
|
| 09/18/2008 9:22 AM |
Alert
|
Posted By Hob on 09/17/2008 7:01 PM I really should know better than to argue with people online. http://xkcd.com/386/To return to the original post that started this whole thing, Tora's proposal seems to boil down to "One uber tourney fighter gets veto power over who gets to be a White Scarf," and I just don't think that's a good idea. I've gotten lucky too often in tourneys to have any illusions that getting the first touch determines who is the better man.
That wasn't quite his idea. His idea was joint veto power between two individuals, one of whom is the most successful (in terms of winning tournaments) fighter in the order, and the other is the elected representative of all the other aspects of leadership represented by the OWS (the so-called 'intangibles'). I assume the ideal in this situation would be significant discussion and compromise between the two to find the most qualified candidates in terms of effective balance between the two sides.
I have two problems with this. Firstly, grouping all these 'intangibles' together under one designation is artificial. Skills such as teaching, marshalling, displaying chivalry, and taking initiative to improve the community (to name just a few) are very different, and grouping them under one heading doesn't do justice to each of them individually. Each member of the OWS has a particular balance of skills and qualifications, as I mentioned before, and it is impossible to find one member who is the most qualified to judge all of these skills collectively under the banner of 'intangibles', especially considering the geographic expanse of this Kingdom.
Secondly, and more importantly, I think this veto power would hurt the greatest strength of a large polling order such as this: diversity. As it is now, OWS from very different regions, qualifications, and backgrounds contribute to a discussion, and comment on their main area of focus. With input from as many members as possible, the most effective and realistic image is created of the fighter in question, instead of two members who will likely be from the same geographic region (due to meetings and the travel necessity) giving a thumbs up or down.
Guillemin
Cadet to Raoul |
|
Guillemin de Rouen
Cadet to Raoul
Scar of Tir Righ |
|
|
Tora
Provost
Posts:105
|
| 09/18/2008 1:31 PM |
Alert
|
I think perhaps, Hob, that if you believe there have been too many times when luck played a factor in your victories that you are selling yourself short. I think it more likely you might not be giving your instincts the credit they are due. I could be wrong, as I do not know you. I'm only calling upon my own experience in such matters.
And Guillemin is correct, the initial idea was not for a single decision-maker, but two. Further, that is but one example of a great many ideas originating from myself and the rapier community at large. The most important thing is not which solution is implemented, only that one is chosen that addresses the problem. |
|
Tora
I'm the optimist who plans for when the pessimist is right. |
|
|
Hob
Scholar
Posts:19
|
| 09/19/2008 11:40 PM |
Alert
|
Posted By Tora on 09/18/2008 1:31 PM
I think perhaps, Hob, that if you believe there have been too many times when luck played a factor in your victories that you are selling yourself short. I think it more likely you might not be giving your instincts the credit they are due. I could be wrong, as I do not know you. I'm only calling upon my own experience in such matters.
The point isn't that luck plays a part in my victories; it plays in everyone's victories. As the saying goes, "anyone can win on any given day." I've gotten wins in tourneys against WSs who I freely admit are better fencers than I am. Just because I beat someone in one tourney doesn't say anything about my ability to judge other fencers.
Further, that is but one example of a great many ideas originating from myself and the rapier community at large. The most important thing is not which solution is implemented, only that one is chosen that addresses the problem. The best solution is much simpler and you're already doing it: Fight well and train new fencers who raise the level of the game. Time will take care of the rest. |
|
|
|
|
|