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Eira
Provost
Posts:79
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| 09/18/2008 7:54 AM |
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So in another topic the discussion of how rapier is viewed by other aspects of the SCA came up. Specifically speaking, on how we are viewed by heavy combatants. Let's face it, whether we like it or not, heavy combat is one of the pillars of the SCA, and one of the oldest activities in this group.
Now that being said, some people feel that we don't have a good relationship with the heavy community on the whole, and that there is a certain level of disrespect. Personally I don't believe that is everywhere, but may likely be the case in some locations? So what can we do to help improve the rapier communities relations with not just heavy combatants, but the SCA on the whole?
Verith wrote - "Your right Eira that respect cannot be simply given it has to be
earned, If there was some way that rapier folk with these feeling could
meet more of the Heavy community and intermingle then that would be
good, even the two Orders,(OWS/Chiv), meeting together to at some point
to talk over how to improve relations between us, (Although I don't
know if that is possible, or if they do sort of thing that now). But I
have to say also that their is favoritism out there, but that might
have to do with the Chiv being a peerage LV award where rapier is held
on a lower LV. Here's an interesting idea that would be cool for the
future, if that one day we could hold some kind of tourney between
heavys and cut/thrust.... Heck why not heavy vs rapier, (not for the
faint of heart). hehe "
I don't think the Chiv Council and OWS currently have joint meetings, but I could be wrong. That could be an interesting idea, just for them to have one occassionally...
As far as your joint tourney idea, interesting thing is I have been in a tourney in the Kingdom of Northshield where every rapier fighter had to have a heavy combatant partner! And each of you fought in erics side by side, and the outcome of your fight directly impacted your partner's fight.....long explanation how it worked, but it was a neat way to try and intergrate the two forms of combat...
As far as favourtism, I think if it is there, it's something that is diminishing over time. After all, rapier is consideribly younger than heavy combat, is it not?
I personally don't think in Avacal we have too much of an issue with disrespect between the heavy and rapier communities. I think it may be because we have many people now who do both forms of combat, it has helped bridge the two a bit. Also I've heard a few knights who have seen Cut and Thrust and think it looks pretty cool.
So what are some of the ways we can help improve these relations on the whole?
I think first off we all need to try to lead by example. If you want them to respect you, you gotta respect them. Maybe taking an interest in what they do would help. Not just heavy, but ever considered watching part of an archery tournament? Or checking out the equestrian field? Maybe they need someone to help run lists or waterbear or whatever. If the rapier folks put themselves out there in the SCA community as a whole, they can start to slowly change whatever negative impressions it is people have about rapier. Eventually people will stop looking at rapier as something inferior to heavy and instead just see it as something different.
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Eira Halladottir, Man-At-Arms to Cadet Hamish MacCarraig |
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Arffuidsson
Free Scholar
Posts:68
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| 09/18/2008 11:39 AM |
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Greetings,
I feel that, while they are good, the comments focus too much on just the relationships between heavy and rapier. In fact, what you stated in your final paragraph is closer to what should be done by those who are able.
The joint heavy & rapier tourney that I have heard of is a double elimination tourney. Your team gets only two losses before they are out, and it doesn’t matter on which field the losses were.
As for leading by example, I feel you have nailed it on the head. But the only way it works is by doing. So, if someone feels they are not receiving the same treatment as others, they need to step up to the plate and demonstrate what respect they are asking for. People should serve where they can and teach what they can and fence when they can.
So give back to the Society by doing things on the local, regional, kingdom, or Society level. Go out of your way to learn new and interesting things. Drag people who don’t fence kicking and screaming to the rapier field by teaching them and being friendly. And get on the field as much as possible; after all, if fencing is your passion, then you need to do it as much as you can!
If one participates as an An Tiran who fences, as opposed to a fencer in that region of the United States and/or Canada, then those who continue to whine about fencers will be left behind by the rest of the kingdom. Everyone else will recognize someone who actually cares for the SCA as a whole.
Thank you Eira for your post.
In Service to the West,
Staffan Arffuidsson |
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Tora
Provost
Posts:102
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| 09/18/2008 1:39 PM |
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A joint heavy/rapier tournament. I'm likin' the sound of that. |
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Tora
I'm the optimist who plans for when the pessimist is right. |
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Talentus
Provost
Posts:123
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| 09/19/2008 9:00 AM |
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This is already in the works for Junefaire! So come out and see how well it works! I really like the idea of trying to bridge the gap between heavy and rapier (these in particular because they are the most similar activities). I will work on trying to get more of these sorts of things scheduled, at least at DL events or other events that i MIC  |
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Talentus "Talon" del Albero |
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Morleigh
Free Scholar
Posts:61
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| 09/20/2008 3:01 PM |
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Those are all good ideas for gaining respect for rapier fighters , but I don't know that it will do anything to gain respect for rapier. Many heavies regard our sport as less manly (as evidenced by the nature of their insults and jokes about us), and therefore will always be lower in the hierarchy. Those people are unlikely to even try fencing and find out how challenging it is. We may have to settle for being respected as people, but not for the game we play.
That said, I found the heavies of Aquaterra and Madrone to be very friendly and helpful as I got my heavy gear together and worked towards my heavy card. Maybe some heavies would be willing to try rapier if we try heavy. |
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godvonrav
Provost
Posts:86
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| 09/20/2008 8:57 PM |
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Posted By Morleigh on 09/20/2008 3:01 PM
Maybe some heavies would be willing to try rapier if we try heavy.
Well....there is that in between sport....Cut and Thrust.
Were we and they can learn learn techniques from each other.
just a thought.
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Don Godfrey von Ravensburg
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Morleigh
Free Scholar
Posts:61
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| 09/20/2008 9:54 PM |
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| That still doesn't change the image of rapier. |
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warwick
Provost
Posts:124
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| 09/21/2008 9:14 PM |
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| I'm always amused when I administer the rapier portion of the Sergent's test at SYG. I hand them my rapier and the look of surprise and yes, often delight, is quite gratifying. "This is like a real sword!" or some such exclamation usually follows, quickly followed by a lot of hacking style swings and a quick lesson in grip, stance and proper cutting technique. They always leave smiling. |
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SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
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| 09/22/2008 7:48 PM |
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Posted By godvonrav on 09/20/2008 8:57 PM
Posted By Morleigh on 09/20/2008 3:01 PM
Maybe some heavies would be willing to try rapier if we try heavy. Well....there is that in between sport....Cut and Thrust. Were we and they can learn learn techniques from each other. just a thought.
How about just learning the techniques that have been laying around for 400 years or so instead of turning it into something sloppy that is just heavy with metal sticks? If you promote "Cut and Thrust" as an in between sport that is what will end up happening. |
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Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
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TheStudent
Novice
Posts:8
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| 09/23/2008 8:32 AM |
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| Simon has a point, plus the heavies might try to talk the cut and thrust guys into thinking that wrap shots and hitting with the flat of the blade is good form. One uses a stick the other a sword enough said. Verith |
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GuilleminDeRouen
Free Scholar
Posts:30
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| 09/26/2008 10:36 AM |
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Cut and thrust is not really an in between sport. It's a different mindset from both, and it has to be. You can't do the little flicking hand snipes we do in rapier, nor can you close your hand and snap the blade like a stick, at very least because of weight.
But the general impression I'm getting from the last couple of posts, though not explicity said, is that the armoured community would corrupt the "purity" of the new game, and I completely disagree. I much prefer the learning from each other approach. If the idea is that the armoured guys would bring in some of their imperfect techniques (flats and wraps were mentioned), I'd contend that us rapier guys haven't insisted on bringing in our little technicalities like the hand sniping, flicky draw cuts, and deep lunges that don't really work in the context. If we can switch mindsets for the benefit of safety and purity, so can they.
I use "we and "they" pretty liberally throughout the post, but I fight rapier, C and T, and armoured, my Don fights both, and almost all the regular cut and thrust players in this area play all three. There's more crossover than I think we're giving the two communities credit for. |
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godvonrav
Provost
Posts:86
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| 09/29/2008 8:48 PM |
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Posted By SimonFencer on 09/22/2008 7:48 PM
How about just learning the techniques that have been laying around for 400 years or so instead of turning it into something sloppy that is just heavy with metal sticks? If you promote "Cut and Thrust" as an in between sport that is what will end up happening.
ahhhh....assuming they have nothing to offer....and calling their technique slop...ya...that's bringing our two communities together...
I guess you just don't quite get what discussion is about.
I imagine they have techniques beyond wraps that may help...talk to them. Shield work maybe? How to see or create opening against sheilds, etc.
try finding ways to include them....not reasons to exclude. |
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Don Godfrey von Ravensburg
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SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
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| 09/30/2008 9:33 AM |
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Posted By godvonrav on 09/29/2008 8:48 PM
Posted By SimonFencer on 09/22/2008 7:48 PM
How about just learning the techniques that have been laying around for 400 years or so instead of turning it into something sloppy that is just heavy with metal sticks? If you promote "Cut and Thrust" as an in between sport that is what will end up happening. ahhhh....assuming they have nothing to offer....and calling their technique slop...ya...that's bringing our two communities together... I guess you just don't quite get what discussion is about. I imagine they have techniques beyond wraps that may help...talk to them. Shield work maybe? How to see or create opening against sheilds, etc. try finding ways to include them....not reasons to exclude.
I'm not calling heavy work slop. I am calling a hybrid between the two slop.
My point is there is zero reason to create a hybrid style. Hybrid community, yes, but not a style. Cut & Thrust already has roots that are actually historically accurate, why not make that the focal point of the new third way of doing sword work in the SCA?
If C&T gets promoted as come and learn a period fighting style where you get to use metal simulators how does that exclude anyone?
I guess what it comes down to, is the point to create another sport that doesn't exclude anyone or is the point to do something historically accurate that only excludes the people that just want another sport and don't care about historical accuracy? |
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Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
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Talentus
Provost
Posts:123
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| 09/30/2008 2:22 PM |
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| Do they have to be mutually exclusive? Just like rapier there are some people that care about historical accuracy, and there are those that don't... |
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Talentus "Talon" del Albero |
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SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
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| 09/30/2008 3:56 PM |
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Posted By Talentus on 09/30/2008 2:22 PM
Do they have to be mutually exclusive? Just like rapier there are some people that care about historical accuracy, and there are those that don't...
Here's the counter question to that one: If you don't care about historical accuracy, why even bother with the SCA to start with?
I don't really care if you learn all the period names for the different forms (or even the names of the period masters for that matter), but I think everyone taking part should at least learn the basics as they were designed in period (adjusted for safety obviously), not just modify rapier or heavy combat to fit the C&T simulators. After that if you want to treat it as a sport that is fine.
Having partipicated in a few C&T workshops I can say it is a lot of fun to learn and looks amazing when done by a pair of combatants that really know what they are doing and doesn't really look much like rapier with cuts (it is much more flowing than that) or heavy with metal sticks (which, frankly is what a lot of C&T at September Crown reminded me of). |
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Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
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Arffuidsson
Free Scholar
Posts:68
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| 10/01/2008 3:23 PM |
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Greetings,
Here in the West we do not require a fighter to study a period technique to authorize Cut & Thrust. We just require safety.
The reason why I bring this up is because I know of a couple of Armored Combat fighters that are authorized in C&T. So far, I haven’t seen them use any stock Armored Combat Techniques like wrap shots; they are capable of throwing shots within the West’s C&T calibration; and they fight in a period manner. And the reason for this?
They had hat time. This on the field, in the armor, experience is very useful. We taught them that the calibration is at a level to demonstrate the technique, not cause injuries (which could happen if they fought “Fast and Light”).
Their opponents haven’t gotten close enough for a wrap to be useful. Proper range is our friend!
Believe it or not, the guard they bring over from the heavy field is period (it is the Second Guard from I.33). In addition to that one, some of the guards that I have seen them take are Broad Ward (di Grassi), Iron Gate (Meyer), and Boar’s Tooth (dei Liberi). The reason they take these guards is because it increased their defense and changes their angle of attack.
And they did all of those without knowing that there were names for the guards. A good friend of mine has a saying, “I can name the shot then throw it, or I can throw the shot.” These Armored Combatants who crossed over fall into the latter.
Oh, and their cuts are period too. After all, the body only moves in so many ways.
The only thing I need to constantly retrain them in is to protect their legs.
Basically, If you want them to cross train by stepping onto the field, you could do worse than Cut & Thrust. But the number one way to get the change is share the passion you have for your fighting, volunteer in areas outside of rapier, and be passionate about the SCA as a whole.
Oh, and Simon, while I care very much for historical styles (Meyer is the best!), I will not force them on to anyone. I will offer what I know and allow that person to find their own path. Usually, they follow the Historical path, but occasionally some have followed the one for SCA-Hybrid. This is their decision to make, not mine.
We need to welcome all, or many will feel snubbed and walk away. I know many fencers and fighters who participate in the SCA who don’t want to study period rapier techniques. They focus their interest in period in their costuming, cooking, drinking (er, I mean brewing), and other aspects. They just want to fight rapier for the fun and excitement of it. Who am I to tell them they can’t play because they don’t know (or want to know) martial arts systems from the time of the SCA?
If they don’t feel snubbed or lectured to they might just stick around. And, if they have stayed, they just might become interested in historical combat. You never know.
Thank you all for the posts!
In Service to the West,
Staffan Arffuidsson |
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LucienD
Novice
Posts:3
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| 10/01/2008 4:20 PM |
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Staffan - good post, covered most of what I wanted to say.
Simon...
Rapiers do cut. Cutting is advocated in every masters fencing manual of the period. You may be mistaking rapier technique for small sword (ie the basis for modern fencing)
Cutting was advocated in Capo Ferro, Meyer, Marozzo, etc. Not only is it effective when used in the correct tempo and measure,(try it on meat sometime) it is period.
So before you judge how we do cut and thrust, keep in mind its a mixture of many different masters techniques... as far back as 1.33. The majority of us here in lionsgate/nova spada, I recommend that you study period manuals, and try techniques and see if you can get them to work.
As well, since you have done some seminars on cut and thrust perhaps you should armor up, get authorized and fight too.
Its one thing to criticize from the sidelines, It's another to get out there, armor up, and fight with the rest of us.
After all, the actual implementation of techniques in combat is often very different from combative theory.
Sincerely,
Lucien de la Montagne d'or
Principality Champion of Tir Righ
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SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
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| 10/02/2008 9:24 AM |
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Posted By LucienD on 10/01/2008 4:20 PM
Staffan - good post, covered most of what I wanted to say.
Simon...
Rapiers do cut. Cutting is advocated in every masters fencing manual of the period. You may be mistaking rapier technique for small sword (ie the basis for modern fencing)
Cutting was advocated in Capo Ferro, Meyer, Marozzo, etc. Not only is it effective when used in the correct tempo and measure,(try it on meat sometime) it is period.
So before you judge how we do cut and thrust, keep in mind its a mixture of many different masters techniques... as far back as 1.33. The majority of us here in lionsgate/nova spada, I recommend that you study period manuals, and try techniques and see if you can get them to work.
As well, since you have done some seminars on cut and thrust perhaps you should armor up, get authorized and fight too.
Its one thing to criticize from the sidelines, It's another to get out there, armor up, and fight with the rest of us.
After all, the actual implementation of techniques in combat is often very different from combative theory.
Sincerely,
Lucien de la Montagne d'or
Principality Champion of Tir Righ
Lucien,
Where exactly did I say that Rapiers don't cut?
And I agree completely with your comments about the number of manuals that C&T draws from. And what I have done has come straight from period manuals. I'm not a big advocate of non-period ("sport") fencing of any sort. That's not to say I don't revert to it, but I'm not an advocate of it.
To be completely honest the reason why I don't armor up and take part is the same reason why I do very little rapier any more, tournaments really do nothing for me. And unless a class is specifically advertised everything seems to be tournaments.
I guess maybe a good topic for a new thread could be What are peoples expectations of Cut & Thrust in the scope of the SCA? Is it a third sport oriented sword activity (meaning more of an emphasis on safety and correct simulators at the lowest skill level), or is it period sword combat where training in period forms is emphasized?
Lucien & Staffan, thanks for taking the time to formulate your replies. |
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Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
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Lessingham
Provost
Posts:117
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| 10/20/2008 7:20 PM |
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Guys;
Proof of training in period forms is not required in AnTir or the West. You just have to prove you can do it safely and know the rules.
I find it odd to see the main subject of this thread in this day and age. Yes there are some heavies that disrespect rapier, the reverse is also true. You pprobably do more damage by promoting that it exists by worrying about it publicly than anything else.
This is largely a thing of the past except in some specific kingdoms. Sir Thomas (a transfer from heavy I am glad to consider a friend) is your new Known World Rapier Marshal. Duke Uther fights rapier..... quite successfully. Duke James Greyhelm has been a supporter of a few of us for years...... Not to mention the large factor of rapier fighters who also fight heavy. There has been more than one event and fighter practice where I have been asked to teach to the heavy community. Simply go out and be a contributing factor to the community..... if you are studying period technique, go discuss it with people and share your knowledge. I generally find it appreciated. |
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"The Will is the captain general of our army and our fortress."
1587 F. Ghisliero pg. 108 |
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