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Raoul
Has a lot to say...
Posts:269
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| 09/07/2007 9:38 AM |
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Greetings all,
We've been having a discussion about the WS Invitational tourneys on the WS forum and I's like to get some feedback from the community in general. Tell us what you like and don't like about the WS Invitational.
Please, tell us what you think.
Raoul |
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"So let us go and get killed where we are told to go. Is life worth the trouble of so many questions?" -Athos |
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Sebastien
Has a lot to say...
Posts:208
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| 09/07/2007 10:29 AM |
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| Also be honest - none of us will take offense. I know some folks did not like my using a destructive bye fighter as I did in the September Crown tourney. We do want to improve this tourney and have actually been discussing what to do with it for quite a while. We would like some outside input at this time. |
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Sebastien de Caen
There is no kill like overkill. |
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SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
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| 09/07/2007 11:20 AM |
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| I don't have any concerns about how they are run. Also, why would there be issues with having bye fights be destructive? |
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Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
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Talentus
Provost
Posts:123
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| 09/07/2007 11:46 AM |
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| One of the things that i dodn't like wasn't so much to do with the tourney itself, but what else was happening at the same time. There were quite a few people that didn't have anything to do. I have no problems with an invitational like that, but i think it would have been good to have something else going on at the same time for everyone else to participate in would have been great. |
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Talentus "Talon" del Albero |
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Luciano
Provost
Posts:144
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| 09/07/2007 12:00 PM |
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Talon,
I appreciate the feedback on the tournament, but I do have a few pseudo rhetorical questions to ask about your suggestion. I think they might help people see where I'm coming from with the invitational at least.
So, if there was something else going on, who would watch the invitational? Who would see the example that the fighters in the invitational are meant to present?
Would you(global you) aspire to being in it anymore, if you knew there was going to be something else going on at the same time that you could fight in, that didn't care what you did?
If we can't keep fencers interested in our own sport, how to we expect to get no fencers interested in the sport?
Luciano |
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Talentus
Provost
Posts:123
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| 09/07/2007 12:13 PM |
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i was under the impression that the invitational was more for the white scarves vice the populace. wasn't it because one or more of the whitescarves saw something intersting that they wanted to see more of. If thats the case then i would say that those would be the people that would watch the tournament...
I think maybe the white scarf invitational is suffering for a global identity crisis. No one really knows what they are for. if it is a prestige thing then people would certainly still aspire to be in them, but if it is just so that the white scarves can see something that interested them then why would i (global i) want to watch something like that when i could be getting some more point time in? |
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Talentus "Talon" del Albero |
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Eira
Provost
Posts:79
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| 09/07/2007 2:32 PM |
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How can I possibly aspire to be invited to such a tourney if I have no clue what the basis for the selection is? I mean for all I know you chose people because you liked the doublet they were wearing that day.
To be honest this is the first time I have seen such a tourney and I had assumed that it would largely consist of the best fighters at the event, and yet when I saw the list I was a little confused as to why some fighters were invited while other's weren't. |
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Eira Halladottir, Man-At-Arms to Cadet Hamish MacCarraig |
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Guillemin
Provost
Posts:120
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| 09/08/2007 1:56 AM |
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So, if I've got it right, the main ideas of the Invitational are the following: a) present an image of the best the rapier community has to offer (and thus encourage more of it), whether that be skill, chivalry, courtesy, awesome garb or that lovely combination of all of the above, and b) to further evaluate fighters based on promise shown in earlier tournaments.
I personnally don't see the necessity of this type of tournament, and the feeling of being put on display as an example for others to follow, and the implication that others should be following my example (to get invited into future tournaments) puts me off the whole thing. I don't think fighters, for the most part, need an example to follow to know what is expected in terms of behaviour and skill. And the SCA community in general has ample opportunity to see sterling examples of exactly the type of behaviour/garb/skill we embrace in the other tournaments. And if the OWS (or some member therein) wants to further evaluate how my fighting is coming along (and offer suggestions), based on something seen in Cadets, pickup fights is a much more appropriate venue than a single fight in a crowded eoric, is it not? If there's something in my game a member of the OWS approves of, I'd rather they tell me personnally than include me in an invite tourney for reasons unknown to me.
I feel there are also negatives to organizing this type of tournament. It encourages artificial fighting in the other tournaments, whether the unscarved know what the criteria are or not. If I (general I) know that an OWS Invitational will be held the next day, and want to be invited, I'm going to fight all the White Scarves (which is good), but do so in the manner that I think they want to see instead of my usual game (which is bad). Further, the whole concept works nicely if no one takes not being invited (being left out) personnally, and attribute it to the simple fact that not everyone can be invited. It's human nature to see such things as personal, however, and hard feelings are bound to result in some individuals (ie. I'm better than him/her, why aren't I in the spotlight in front of everyone?)
If you want my honest opinion on how to improve this tournament, scrap the Invitation part of it. The more tournaments, the merrier of course, but I think there are better ways to accomplish the goals above than with Invite tournies. Why not just leave the list open to anyone? Combatants can still test themselves against the Scarves in a gauntlet style format, and the fighters can choose to follow what examples they will (and the populace draw what conclsions they will) of those who attend. If an OWS wants extra time with one of the entrants, hit them up for a set of pickups later. We'd need at least two halves, to give the OWS some kind of break, and the feasability would depend on numbers, but I think it would give a more realistic view of those entrants and leave no hard feelings in the community in general. |
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Guillemin de Rouen
Cadet to Raoul Delaroche
Rapier Champion of Avacal |
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TdB
Free Scholar
Posts:58
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| 09/10/2007 10:06 AM |
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I'm not sure of the reasoning behind the choices myself. It may be that someone's invitation is because they've improved their game or because one of the scarves wants to watch them vs all the other scarves or because they look hot in those snug breeches.
I would be happy to see it as an open entrance tournament - have all the competitors run the WS guantlet, then seed the fighters into a single elim tournament (non-destructive byes, destructive double kills) based on their results. Track more than wins and losses in the gauntlet portion - I'd like to see which scarves a given fighter beat (so use a grid.. one column for each scarf, one row for each challenger, record the challenger's outcome in the appropriate box). The scarves still get to watch the fighters they want to watch, and to fight the fighters they want to fight. It's single elim so it won't take forever even with a larger number of entrants, and the gauntlet portion goes pretty quickly anyway.
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OK, fine, I'm unapproachable. Keep your distance or I'll pez you. |
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Alvarro
Too many posts...
Posts:301
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| 09/10/2007 10:22 AM |
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Posted By Guillemin on 09-08-2007 1:56 AM
I personnally don't see the necessity of this type of tournament, and the feeling of being put on display as an example for others to follow, and the implication that others should be following my example (to get invited into future tournaments) puts me off the whole thing.
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Then why are you a cadet? I mean, I'm sorry, but there is *nothing* else to being a WS but that.
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Prudence. Temperance. Fortitude. Justice. |
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Guillemin
Provost
Posts:120
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| 09/10/2007 3:59 PM |
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Posted By Alvarro on 09-10-2007 10:22 AM Posted By Guillemin on 09-08-2007 1:56 AM
I personnally don't see the necessity of this type of tournament, and the feeling of being put on display as an example for others to follow, and the implication that others should be following my example (to get invited into future tournaments) puts me off the whole thing.
? Then why are you a cadet? I mean, I'm sorry, but there is *nothing* else to being a WS but that.
I don't buy that one. If someone wants to take me for an example to follow, I'm honoured, but a tourney specifically to prop me up as that example to follow at the expense of more talented fighters? No thanks.
Wanting to be a positive example overall (as I think all fighters do in some measue) and wanting to be an example in the Invitaional setting are two different things, im my opinion. |
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Guillemin de Rouen
Cadet to Raoul Delaroche
Rapier Champion of Avacal |
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Tora
Provost
Posts:105
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| 09/10/2007 4:03 PM |
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Posted By TdB on 09-10-2007 10:06 AM
I would be happy to see it as an open entrance tournament - have all the competitors run the WS guantlet, then seed the fighters into a single elim tournament (non-destructive byes, destructive double kills) based on their results.
If you really wanted a novel showcase of skill AND something that would generate interest, the above wouldn't be a bad way to go about it. It would also give any white scarf hopefuls a yard stick, as it were, to see where their own skill is compared to those whose ranks they wish to join. |
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Tora
I'm the optimist who plans for when the pessimist is right. |
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Talentus
Provost
Posts:123
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| 09/10/2007 8:52 PM |
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| I like that idea too... |
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Talentus "Talon" del Albero |
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Sebastien
Has a lot to say...
Posts:208
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| 09/11/2007 9:14 AM |
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| I'm tired just thinking about it :-) Definitely an idea though. |
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Sebastien de Caen
There is no kill like overkill. |
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Rhodric
Novice
Posts:6
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| 09/11/2007 8:49 PM |
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I like this idea also.... even if I may never make an aspiration to wear the white, the challenge of the gauntlet and elimination would be to much to ignore. 
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Thorbjorn
Scholar
Posts:10
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| 12/14/2007 10:38 PM |
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It seems to me, that an open-list, gauntlet-style tourney is a win, win situation. It allows the white-scarves a chance to see the people they want to, and they might see some things that surprize them. Don't you think interest would be generated, if it were known you could have a chance to fence some of the best fencers of An Tir. I know that would get me to the eric, no matter the weather, or how tired I was. Larger lists generate more crowds. (hey, what's going on over there?) I guess that's my 2 cents worth.
Thorbjorn Askni |
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