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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 04/17/2006 3:45 PM |
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April's survey was whether or not C&T should be a separate authorization, or just an additional checkbox on your card (like case). Interesting split on the responses, so would love to hear what people have to say. |
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
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| 04/17/2006 4:30 PM |
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Can you define "Separate Authorization" for us. Technically, Case is separate from rapier as you do not have to be authorized in Case.
I think of a bigger concern is not how it is documented, but who will be allowed to authorize people to take part in C&T. Plus in theory, you don't need any authorization to practice, and practice can take place at an event. So, if you have to be authorized to take part in a tournament, does that mean anything outside of the tournament is only practice?
Paul |
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Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 04/18/2006 8:52 PM |
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Separate authorization means... Not required to have a rapier auth in order to be authorized for C&T
And the intent is that there would be tournaments for C&T |
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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SimonFencer
Provost
Posts:132
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| 04/19/2006 7:05 AM |
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| That definition of separate works for me. |
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Paul Franklin
in the SCA: Simon Valdez, AoA, cadet to Mouse
Around the triple W: Simonfencer |
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Lucien
Novice
Posts:8
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| 09/05/2006 10:36 AM |
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Hi all,
I am new to the forum and to the rapier community.
I spent time watching the heavy tournament on saturday, and on sunday watching prospere and luciano fight C&T at crown...
Now in the hands of Luciano, and Prospere this was a perfectly safe activity, both are distinguished, well trained, and experienced fighters with in our community.
However looking back on the how the heavys fight, I believe that it should be a completely separate authorization, along with distinct and separate blade requirements, secondaries requirements, armor requirements, blow requirements, and martialling training.
I could see C&T becoming very popular in the heavy community, as it has similarities to alot of what they are doing, only now they can do alot of what they were doing before just with real steel.
And I dont know about any of you, but after watching the force that some of those heavy fighters strike with, I wouldnt be too excited on being hit by one of them with a steel cut and thrust sword.
One example is that a 'late' hit delivered too hard and too fast against an opponent with minimum armor could be devistating and debilitating if delivered too hard, on an unarmored body part... especially from a very large and strong opponent who comes from a different system of martial training.
As a result the 'winner' of the said match is too injured to continue the tournament.
There are others who were watching this match, and in discussion expressed similiar concerns.
Also, helmet requirements should be vastly different, rather than the standard 3 weapons mask used for fencing.
Personally, when i decide to fight this style... I will opt have the full steel helms that a few of the rapier fighters I saw (and had the pleasure of fighting) at crown had... I am pretty certain that a hard hit with a good sized C&T blade could cave in a 3 weapons mask... or in the least render it useless.
I also spoke to a few heavy fighters about the C&T idea... and they did express quite a bit of interest in the C&T sword style, so I am sure there will be some if not alot of cross over when they realize exactly what we are doing.
In the best interest of this new style of sword play, I opt for caution... as I would like to eventually compete and fight this style of sword when I increase my level of skill with the Rapier.
If too many people get seriously hurt, the cut and thrust will get banned, and we will all lose in the long run. And of course getting a broken arm, ribs, leg would be terrible... and since many of us already complain about getting a hard hit from a steel rapier simulator... I see no reason to have the same or even similar requirements for this style of fighting.
After all, it would be nice to have this middle ground between rapier and heavy that could attract heavy fighters and give us a place where we can have fair and safe competition between our fighters and theirs.
Which of course, is good for everyone.
With the right rules, this style of swordplay becoming extremely popular is a very real possibilty and one I personally look forward to.
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Lucien de la Montagne D'or
Cadet to HL Dona Lasairiona
Captain of Seagirt's own Grenadiers.
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Alvarro
Too many posts...
Posts:301
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| 09/05/2006 3:19 PM |
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Lucien,
It might help to remember you've been doing cut and thrust since you first picked up a rapier...what we do at the academy, the rule standard, is the same. You've just been doing it with a rapier, and not with the other weapons.
Which...hmmm...I think I will post on the marshallate forum... |
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Prudence. Temperance. Fortitude. Justice. |
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lord liam
Scholar
Posts:10
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| 09/07/2006 12:41 AM |
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what lucien said.
and if c&t is passed into the same catagory as rapier i will not fight them, and i know many other fighters who will not fight anyone using a c&t, it's dangerous and i can not afford a new rapier blade after every event i go to. i don't think anyone has really thought about the kind of damage a c&t would do to a rapier blade. maybe now that i've brought it up people will stop and think about the cost that would be involved. |
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Alvarro
Too many posts...
Posts:301
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| 09/07/2006 1:46 AM |
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Posted By lord liam on 09-07-2006 12:41 AM
what lucien said.
and if c&t is passed into the same catagory as rapier i will not fight them, and i know many other fighters who will not fight anyone using a c&t, it's dangerous and i can not afford a new rapier blade after every event i go to. i don't think anyone has really thought about the kind of damage a c&t would do to a rapier blade. maybe now that i've brought it up people will stop and think about the cost that would be involved.
Yeah... voice of experience there, eh?
Have I mentioned my school with over 150 members has been doing cut and thrust for over two years now?
Reeeeeal dangerous. Sooooooo much damage to blades. Gosh.
That was sarcasm by the way. 
Sorry, it's late a night, and I am waaaay tired. But your post did strike me as a tad melodramatic.
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Prudence. Temperance. Fortitude. Justice. |
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lord liam
Scholar
Posts:10
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| 09/07/2006 6:15 PM |
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alvarro,
your wit truly astounds me. still, however experienced i may or may or may not be i will not fight anybody with a c&t rapier, damage to the blade or no damage because unfortunately, not everyone is experienced. even the experienced tend to get carried away, wasn't there just a thread somewhere about hitting to hard and such. well, i'm not going to go up against a bunch of guys with big man syndrom just because you say it's safe. sorry, but it ain't happenin' |
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jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
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| 09/07/2006 6:56 PM |
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Hey Liam, no need to worry about anything there at all. Since only those authorized in C&T can use the C&T specific blades, or join C&T tournaments, should not be too much concern for you there.
If you do not want to do it, just dont authorize. |
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Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
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Alvarro
Too many posts...
Posts:301
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| 09/08/2006 1:04 AM |
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What?!? We aren't forcing everyone to fight C&T?
That's it, I'm outa this conspiracy. Is there still room in the "rich people only" conspiracy, or shall I just move on to the "kill combat archery" conspiracy?
Man, I thought we agreed to force everyone at gun point to do cut n thrust. I'm totally sure I remember that. We were going to snap all their blades and bruise them, and force them to wear braise and hose. I feel soooo let down. |
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Prudence. Temperance. Fortitude. Justice. |
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Cordell
Scholar
Posts:19
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| 09/08/2006 4:38 PM |
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It was the "braise and hose" that killed that conspiracy.. No one who wouldn't wear it before hand.. Won't wear it now.. Just can't force'em....
Sorry Alvarro.. but fashion is what it's all about..*smirk* |
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lord liam
Scholar
Posts:10
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| 09/09/2006 12:46 AM |
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oh Alvarro, you flatter yourself with way to much confidence. i'm in stitches with the hilliarity of the sarcasm. what you and ramon don't seem to get is that i really don't care what the heck you think of me, i'm sorry i don't own my own school, i'm sorry that i don't have all the experience that your "esteemed self" has, i'm sorry i don't play in your "league" but i sure am glad i'm not like you. quik, think of something else to laugh at me about, i might come up with another conspiracy. mwaa ha ha ha.
*sigh*
see yah around, nice knowin ya, have a nice day |
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KitH
Free Scholar
Posts:65
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| 09/11/2006 1:15 PM |
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Liam,
I've lost track in the thread. Is your concern with the weapons or the fighters?
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Kit Heinrichs
SCA: Christopher MacEveny, Cadet to Don Magnus von Bremen |
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RuaidhriMacCuileann
Free Scholar
Posts:59
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| 09/12/2006 5:06 PM |
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Liam,
No worries. The SCA has implemented C&T as a separate rapier class. This means that there are now three classes of rapier combat allowed in the Society:
1. Light (foils & epees) - This class is not used in An Tir
2. Heavy (schlaegers, Del Tins, Scotties, Hanweis, Zamoranos, Angus Trims, Triplette/Zens, certain types of Alchems, and Darkwoods) - This is the default class for rapier combat in An Tir.
3. Cut & Thrust (most of the heavy rapier blades, plus a few more even heavier varieties) - This is the new class of rapier, recently introduced at the corporate level, and coming soon to a kingdom near you.
The SCA rules explicitly state that you must have separate authorizations for each class of rapier combat, and that you cannot mix classes (for example, no epee vs. Del Tin, or no schlaeger vs. Darkwood Sidesword). In short, you have nothing to worry about. If you are not authorized in Cut & Thrust combat, nobody can take the field against you using Cut & Thrust weapons or rules.
As for the safety of Cut & Thrust, it just requires additional training among the participants. Nobody gets the card unless they've proven that they have the skill and control to fight safely. Believe me, there's been a lot of tooth-gnashing (to put it mildly) during the process of developing C&T rules. The SCA is very concious, even occasionally paranoid, about safety. The SCA approved the C&T rules. To me, this means that C&T is safe, if practiced as approved. Don't run it down as dangerous. A lot of good people have put a lot of research and effort into making this thing work safely. Dismissing C&T as dangerous is a direct insult to those people. Think about it.
Regards,
W. Scott Simmons
aka Ruaidhri Mac Cuileann dal gCais
cadet to Don Tyrus of Misty Haven
Currently embedded in Ansteorra on a mission so secret that even I don't know why I'm here... |
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