| Author |
Messages |
|
Sevrin
FALSE
Free Scholar
Posts:39
 |
| 08/24/2006 3:28 PM |
 Alert
|
Nice to see the Rigid Material definition expanded and the "Heavy leather backed by 1/4" thick closed cell foam" line removed from examples.
At our local practice last night there was still one fighter arguing the point that the failed gorgets "met" the requirements, despite not being RIGID.
|
|
Yours in Service,
Sevrin de Savage
Cadet to Don Enoch Jacobsz. van Zuidland
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|
|
|
MollyModine
Provost
Posts:135
|
| 08/24/2006 11:59 PM |
Alert
|
Sevrin just remember that last night the discussion was that you were saying 'rigid' meant completely 'unbendable' and the otherside of the discussion being presented was that the 'rules' were giving examples of things that weren't completely 'unbendable'. That was the two sides.
We also discussed what was safe in practical example and what was written in the rules, and how a 'new person' could misunderstand or not understand at all, based on how it was written.
In conclusion,
I too like this change, Rigid Material does not mean unbendable, but does mean will not significantly flex. And to support that, I like the 12kg repeated pressure to make sure that there is a concrete mathematical test can be used instead of a subjective test only. |
|
Molly Modine (GdS, Havoc)
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
|
|
Sevrin
FALSE
Free Scholar
Posts:39
|
| 08/25/2006 8:15 AM |
Alert
|
Posted By MollyModine on 08-24-2006 11:59 PM
... the discussion was that you were saying 'rigid' meant completely 'unbendable' and the otherside of the discussion being presented was that the 'rules' were giving examples of things that weren't completely 'unbendable'. That was the two sides.
Actually, no. I never used the word "unbendable". The topic came up again when our Knight Marshal failed the leather gorget one of your students was wearing. It could be deformed by applying very little pressure against the throat segment - nothing close to the 12KG the new rules stipulate.
My point was and is; The rule has always stated that RM means rigid material that can redistribute the force of a blow - not fold up and transfer the force directly onto the larynx. The examples under the definition are superceded by the definition itself. Remember; I also gave an example of how I could construct a steel gorget in such a way that it too would not be rigid. This isn't about rules lawyering, it's about safety.
Kudos to those who have addressed this issue in the new rules to cover this off. |
|
Yours in Service,
Sevrin de Savage
Cadet to Don Enoch Jacobsz. van Zuidland
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|
|
|
MollyModine
Provost
Posts:135
|
| 08/25/2006 10:01 AM |
Alert
|
Not sure why you're going for the personal side of this Sevrin, instead of just dealing with the issue.
As to one of my student's gorgets failing by Enoch's opinion, please refer back to my comment about what the rules state as examples of acceptable protection. The gorget that was failed by Enoch was made to what the rules say is okay.
And yes you did say that rigid meant unbendable.
Anyhow I'm done in this discussion. |
|
Molly Modine (GdS, Havoc)
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
|
|
Sevrin
FALSE
Free Scholar
Posts:39
|
| 08/25/2006 10:37 AM |
Alert
|
Posted By MollyModine on 08-25-2006 10:01 AM
As to one of my student's gorgets failing by Enoch's opinion, please refer back to my comment about what the rules state as examples of acceptable protection. The gorget that was failed by Enoch was made to what the rules say is okay.
First, it was Appledore's Knight Marshal who failed the gorget, not Don Enoch. I asked Don Enoch's opinion after the fact, and being that he is the Senior Marshal for our area, I think his opinion is valuable. And his opinion supported Hakim's decision. Second, that gorget - and any like it - was not made to the specifications in the current An Tir book of Rapier Combat because they are not rigid and do not "redistribute the force of a blow".
You can argue the point all you like, Molly, and you can continue to allow these gorgets to be used by your students at your private practices. But they do not meet the requirements laid out in the current Rapier rules and those wearing them will not be fighting at any SCA sanctioned practice or event in Appledore. |
|
Yours in Service,
Sevrin de Savage
Cadet to Don Enoch Jacobsz. van Zuidland
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|
|
|
Sevrin
FALSE
Free Scholar
Posts:39
|
| 08/25/2006 10:43 AM |
Alert
|
Posted By Albert_Faulke on 08-25-2006 10:08 AM
Please remember that these are draft rules and shouldn't be used for until approved.
Also remember, that 8-oz leather is about 1/4" (6.25-mm) thick. Even treated, there is not a lot of flex.
Our Knight Marshal was following the current definitions of rigid when he failed the gorget in question - it was me who commented about the 12kg force in my post. The failed gorget flexed with very little pressure - applied with a fingertip as a matter of fact.
|
|
Yours in Service,
Sevrin de Savage
Cadet to Don Enoch Jacobsz. van Zuidland
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|
|
|
MollyModine
Provost
Posts:135
|
| 08/25/2006 10:58 AM |
Alert
|
Oaky I'm going to try to look past your personal attacks on me here Sevrin and your very clear hostile attitude towards me as well. And try to get back to the issue....
All I have said was the gorgets were made, by a newcomer, to what the Rapier rules said were acceptable examples of rigid. What else would a person do? Heck 30 gorgets at Clinton failed because of those rules.
Now I am also waiting to hear from the person who made them what weight of leather he actually used.
Just to know ... I know it was real thick boot leather, but that's all.
I also said countless times on Wednesday that the given examples and the meaning of rigid were two different things. Please refer back to the original posts I made.
And to further it I have already said we were going to put metal plating on the gorgets here immediately.
Care to beat the dead horse any more? Cause I'm done. |
|
Molly Modine (GdS, Havoc)
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
|
|
TdB
Free Scholar
Posts:58
|
| 08/25/2006 11:04 AM |
Alert
|
All the experienced marshals in the kingdom should be familiar with my leather gorget. It's a commercial leather gorget of a kind I see all over the SCA. It flexes when pressed with a fingertip. It has never failed to pass inspection, and it's been inspected by several kingdom marshals. When buckled in place, it's more rigid than it is sitting on a desk. It's not intended to shatter the blade that strikes it; it's intended to distribute the force of a shot so that my windpipe doesn't get collapsed. And it does that just fine.
|
|
OK, fine, I'm unapproachable. Keep your distance or I'll pez you. |
|
|
Sevrin
FALSE
Free Scholar
Posts:39
|
| 08/25/2006 11:04 AM |
Alert
|
Posted By MollyModine on 08-25-2006 10:58 AM
... going to put metal plating on the gorgets here immediately.
Glad to hear it.
Posted By MollyModine on 08-25-2006 10:58 AM
Care to beat the dead horse any more?
It's not a dead horse to those who are responsible for the safety of members of the Rapier community.
|
|
Yours in Service,
Sevrin de Savage
Cadet to Don Enoch Jacobsz. van Zuidland
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|
|
|
Sevrin
FALSE
Free Scholar
Posts:39
|
| 08/25/2006 12:52 PM |
Alert
|
Posted By Albert_Faulke on 08-25-2006 12:08 PM
What method was used to determine if the gorgets in question wouldn't redistribute the force of a blow?
I can only speak to the one that failed in Appledore at the Wednesday practice this week. The method used was simply our Knight Marshal pressing the tip of his index finger against it while the fighter was wearing it and watching it fold in on itself - no resistance, no redistribution of very minimum force. |
|
Yours in Service,
Sevrin de Savage
Cadet to Don Enoch Jacobsz. van Zuidland
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|
|
|
MollyModine
Provost
Posts:135
|
| 08/25/2006 12:55 PM |
Alert
|
Thanks Albert for your post, as well as Thore's.
The method of testing was a light press with a fingertip and the gorget 'flexed'. This was done by Hakim and Don Enoch. But the gorget in question has been made with heavy boot leather, and then a second layer of leather and then closed cell foamed wraped in leather.
Anyhow....
Here is a letter I have been given by someone, after an inquiry by a senior rapier marshal. I did not make the inital email, nor have I emailed Ramon on this specifically. It is just a ruling that was given to me, and in light of a post that Sevrin made on our shire mailing list as well as here I feel it is needed to be posted.
Molly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually - I am going to go ahead and step in here to make a small clarification. I hope that all here can use some common sense in listening to these words.
As has already been stated here a few times, the requirements for neck protection in the Kingdom Rapier rules is very clear: "Any material that can redistribute the force of a blow" that means, if you can somehow make a gorget out of a single layer of tissue paper; and prove that the material can fulfill the aforementioned condition - then it is acceptable for use by our rules. It does NOT mean that it has to be inflexible or stiff, or even unmoving. It could, and possibly should - but that is not the thrust of this response.
The An Tir Rapier Book of Combat (rules) provides the ONLY defintion for requirements regarding "rigid" protection. Not Webster, not Oxford, nor any other non-SCA resource with the proper authority.
Examples are provided in the rules for acceptable materials, and within that list is 2 layers of 8oz leather, or one layer of 8oz leather, backed with closed cell foam. Personally, I do not see the latter of these two fitting any dictionary definition for "rigid". But they are listed as acceptable materials within the current revision of the An Tir Rules - hence, they are acceptable at this time.
End of discussion.
Don Ramon Diaz de la Vega
Kingdom Rapier Marshal, An Tir |
|
Molly Modine (GdS, Havoc)
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
|
|
Sevrin
FALSE
Free Scholar
Posts:39
|
| 08/25/2006 1:15 PM |
Alert
|
Molly - Thank you for posting that email from Don Ramon. I was looking for it to quote from. As he states in his second paragraph, it isn't the material that a gorget is constructed from that is the issue - it is whether or not it can redistribute the force of a blow.
The gorget I was wearing last year when I was injured passed the definition of construction materials, but not the definition of rigid. The leather one I wear now can be "flexed" slightly, but when force is applied to the centre of the throat area, it transmits that force around the sides of my neck, not directly through to my larynx.
The leather gorgets that Thore speaks of I believe is the same as the one you wear - yes it flexes, but once it is strapped in place it becomes "rigid" - as in redistributing the force of a blow. That's what we're looking for, not so much the materials or methods of construction. |
|
Yours in Service,
Sevrin de Savage
Cadet to Don Enoch Jacobsz. van Zuidland
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|
|
|
Sevrin
FALSE
Free Scholar
Posts:39
|
| 08/25/2006 1:21 PM |
Alert
|
Posted By Albert_Faulke on 08-25-2006 1:00 PM
Which is not a valid test.
So, currently, what is a valid "test"?
As I stated in my last post, the gorget I was wearing last year when I was gacked met the example listed in the definitions. But it did nothing to stop me from receiving a cracked and dislocated thyroid cartilage.
Regardless, once the new rules are approved, this debate will become moot. |
|
Yours in Service,
Sevrin de Savage
Cadet to Don Enoch Jacobsz. van Zuidland
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|
|
|
Draven
Free Scholar
Posts:65
|
| 08/25/2006 1:59 PM |
Alert
|
Don Albert,
You said basically what I have been fighting in Tir Righ for some time, both in an open and private matter. There is getting to be a lot of "preferences" that are being hawked as "legal." When it is not the case.
Marshals: the rules stand clear, if you fail the gorgets given under the definitions of the ABCs. Then you are in violation and risk of disciplinary actions listed under the RMH.
Sevrin,
I understand your reasons why you would like to like have more stiffer gorgets, given the injury you suffered. Perhaps you can champion the cause for the gorgets given your example? |
|
Draven Mac Raith
Cadet to Monseigneur Prospere de Montsegur
"Scar of Tir Righ" Principality Rapier Champion |
|
|
Hakim
Scholar
Posts:26
|
| 08/25/2006 9:55 PM |
Alert
|
Posted By Albert_Faulke on 08-25-2006 10:08 AM
Please remember that these are draft rules and shouldn't be used for until approved.
Also remember, that 8-oz leather is about 1/4" (6.25-mm) thick. Even treated, there is not a lot of flex. Please read the following quote from Tandy Leather:
Thickness or Weight – Leather is usually measured in terms of
ounces. One ounce equals 1/64th of an inch thickness. Thus, a weight of
7 to 8 oz. means the leather is 7/64th to 8/64th of an inch thickness.
In an effort to make leather a uniform thickness, wet hides are run
through a splitting machine. However, each animal is different and
there is always a slight thickness variation throughout the hide. This
is why leathers are usually shown with a range of thickness, such as, 4
to 5 oz., 6 to 7 oz., etc.
This means 8/64" = 1/8".
And here is the link to where I found it:
http://www.tandyleather.com/LeatherGuide.asp
As a Marshal I would also like to point out that I can disallow any piece of equipment I feel is unsafe, as I am ultimately responsible for letting it on the field.
Hakim
Knight Marshal of Appledore
|
|
Hakim
student to Don Enoch |
|
|
MollyModine
Provost
Posts:135
|
| 08/25/2006 10:09 PM |
Alert
|
God Hakim why would you try to throw your weight around like that?
Yeah you're a marshal .... a junior rapier marshal, the same as myself.
So what if you hold the combat office in the shire, that's a one year term.
Please try to pay attention and understand what several OWSs and Senior Marshals and the Kingdom Rapier Marshal are trying to tell you about the RULES and not you or anyone elses IDEAS on the RULES. And try to get past the petty personal stuff of trying to ruin other people's fun for your own gain.
And remember Draven's post on the RULES and those who try to manipulate the rules for their own ideals. |
|
Molly Modine (GdS, Havoc)
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
|
|
Hakim
Scholar
Posts:26
|
| 08/25/2006 11:25 PM |
Alert
|
Posted By MollyModine on 08-25-2006 10:09 PM
God Hakim why would you try to throw your weight around like that?
Yeah you're a marshal .... a junior rapier marshal, the same as myself.
So what if you hold the combat office in the shire, that's a one year term.
Please try to pay attention and understand what several OWSs and Senior Marshals and the Kingdom Rapier Marshal are trying to tell you about the RULES and not you or anyone elses IDEAS on the RULES. And try to get past the petty personal stuff of trying to ruin other people's fun for your own gain.
And remember Draven's post on the RULES and those who try to manipulate the rules for their own ideals. "Throw my weight around" I was pointing out that ANY marshal can Fail ANY piece of equipment they feel is unsafe or in violation of the rules.
I have been a junior marshal for ten years, how long have you been a junior? Why am I not a Senior? That is because I didn't really want to marshal at a kingdom level event. That will be changing though as of Sept. Coronet.
As to what several OWSs and Senior Marshals and the Kingdom Rapier Marshal are trying to tell me about the rules, I thought this was an open discussion to address the new proposed rule set and to voice where changes should be made, from our personal opinions about the current rule set.
"And try to get past the petty personal stuff of trying to ruin other people's fun for your own gain."
Ok, so if I failed "fighter A's" armor just before I fought them in a tournament, therefore "fighter A" forfeits the bout and I move up, that would be for my own personal gain and abuse of the rules. Failing a piece of armor at Practice because I felt that it would not distribute force, that's for the safety for the fighter, and is that not the number one rule for any marshal? Ensuring the safety of combatants and spectators, not acting as judge? At least that was my interperatation of the role of the marshal, and many teachers over the years have taught that interperation.
Hakim
Student to Don Enoch
|
|
Hakim
student to Don Enoch |
|
|
MollyModine
Provost
Posts:135
|
| 08/26/2006 7:57 AM |
Alert
|
Hakim
Don Ramon (Kingdom Rapier Marshal) has already said that if a gorget is made to the armor examples of RIGID that are listed in the RULES you have no reason to fail it.
We've discussed this at length, I agree that we should plate the gorgets, but that is asking for armor requirements BEYOND what the RULES say.
Side note:
I'm amazed, we've probably got less then 25 fighters in the whole Okanagan valley (Osoyoos to Kelowna) and we can't get along these days because of a couple of people ... there is a loss of respect for other styles, making life difficult for new people, bullying members, bad mouthing people behind their backs, and a general if you ain't in my club your not my friend attitude. ... I'm really not happy ....
When I came to Appledore you, Hakim, and all the others were still fighting with fibreglass, and until the other week you still were. I've worked hard to buy extra steel blades to share with people, get lessons from AD for real solid period teaching, take people to tournaments for new experiences, and really promote rapier in our little community. And as of late what do I get? I get sh*t on by you, Sevrin, Enoch every chance you get, usually behind my back. I don't get it and it's so not fair, fun, honourable, chilvarous nor what the SCA is about.
Anyhow I'm done for the day as I have to go to work and have a life and find my fun. I'm sure you guys will have something to say in retorte though. |
|
Molly Modine (GdS, Havoc)
Cadet to Monseignor Prospere de Montsegur
Thorn of the Sable Rose, Argent |
|
|
jgreywolf
Hai Gioco?
Posts:685
|
| 08/26/2006 8:09 AM |
Alert
|
Clarification - If any marshal is concerned about the safety of a particular weapon or piece of armor, it is within that marshal's ability to disallow said equipment. Whether they are the branch marshal, an inspecting marshal, or the MiC for an event. It is also within the fighter's ability to appeal this decision using the grievance procedures as outlined in the RMH - to whit:
MiC -> Branch Marshal -> Regional/Principality Marshal -> KRM -> Earl Marshal -> Crown |
|
Justin Greywolf (SCA: Ramon Diaz de la Vega)
Director
Old World Martial Arts - Teaching Historical Italian Swordplay in the Pacific Northwest |
|
|
Kallyn
Novice
Posts:8
|
| 08/26/2006 10:39 AM |
Alert
|
"I'm amazed, we've probably got less then 25 fighters in the whole Okanagan valley (Osoyoos to Kelowna) and we can't get along these days because of a couple of people ... there is a loss of respect for other styles, making life difficult for new people, bullying members, bad mouthing people behind their backs, and a general if you ain't in my club your not my friend attitude. ... I'm really not happy ....
When I came to Appledore you, Hakim, and all the others were still fighting with fibreglass, and until the other week you still were. I've worked hard to buy extra steel blades to share with people, get lessons from AD for real solid period teaching, take people to tournaments for new experiences, and really promote rapier in our little community. And as of late what do I get? I get sh*t on by you, Sevrin, Enoch every chance you get, usually behind my back. I don't get it and it's so not fair, fun, honourable, chilvarous nor what the SCA is about.
Anyhow I'm done for the day as I have to go to work and have a life and find my fun. I'm sure you guys will have something to say in retorte though."
Molly,
I'm going to chime in here for a point of interest...
You've attacked Sevrin and Hakim about bullying, bad-mouthing, and general dishonourable actions, so I would like to point out that you are in fact personally attacking these two on a Kingdom-level forum and airing in-house dirty laundry. Brow-beating them and belittling them here for what purpose?
If you do have issues with these two, please refer to Kingdom Laws and Copora about the porper way to do a grievance procedure within the SCA. This is a message board to discuss our PERSONAL OPINIONS on whatever points we have for the draft rules regarding Rapier Combat.
My opinion is to not entirely ban fibreglass and remove the leather gorget backed with closed cell foam. I am neither right nor wrong, and so I should be attacked for stating my opnion.
Kallyn |
|
|
|
|
|